Talk:History of Anglo-Saxon England

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A great start. This is what I'd call a "trunk article:" the reader should find a hyperlinked mention of almost all Wikipedia's articles in this area, cleverly knit into paragraphs, with plenty of those Main article:... headers. --Wetman 09:18, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

yes, I noticed there was the category, but not the article; later, I realized there was no Anglo-Saxon England either, so I made it a redirect. This should, as you say, be a concise summary of the topic, with lots of links to the relevant specialized articles. dab (ᛏ) 09:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Update

I've expanded on what was here before. It's still a (very) brief guide to Anglo-Saxon England, but should now be more comprehensive. Previously there was very little on later ASE, and some relatively minor points (e.g. population displacement) had much more said about them than very important points, such as the development of England in the 10th century. I've also tried to separate history from legend with some emphasis on sources.

very nice, thank you. How current are the terms "First/Second Viking Age"? We should have individual articles about the vadious sections, so we do not have to give a selection of biographical articles as "main articles" at sections' headings. I don't know if First Viking Age, Second Viking Age would be appropriate titles, however. dab (ᛏ) 12:00, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
First/Second viking age is now outdated, I believe, though not entirely undescriptive. Perhaps 'Viking Raids and Settlement/The Viking Challenge ' and 'England under the Danes' respectively, or something similar? Harthacanute 17:25, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Term Sub-Roman - A bit outdated, Early Medieval Period is more appropriate Jg282 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genetic material

I've removed the long paragraph on genetic research from this page, and included a summary and link to the Anglo-Saxons page where it is covered in detail. As this is supposed to be an 'outline' of Anglo-Saxon England I don't feel there is the need to go in to great detail on any one particular area of research. Other views on this? Harthacanute 17:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo-Saxon History

Im confused which article is the main article for Anglo-Saxon history, this one or Anglo-Saxons, they both point to each other as the "main article" for Anglo-Saxon history, and contain different parts in detail. Plus there are some other articles as well. It would be really great to have a single article that is the main Anglo-Saxon history. I dont think Anglo-Saxons should be it. --Stbalbach 14:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'd rather have Anglo-Saxons as a page describing the term and the people rather than the history, though it is hard to separate these entirely. I think this page now gives a fairly good overview of the period, though perhaps a bit weighted towards the earlier period, especially in comparison to the available source material. Harthacanute 00:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we move the "history" material out of Anglo-Saxons to this article? And then have a single-paragraph or two with a "main article" pointing to this article? The history should be just like the other sections in the Anglo-Saxons article: Literature, Art, Language, etc.. Im not sure how to integrate the history material from that article into this one. --Stbalbach 00:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
No, it's a problem most academic writers can't get round! The 'thematic' ideas won't fit nicely into the 'chronological' arrangement. Maybe if we just appended sections on Literature, Art and Language to the chronological section of Anglo-Saxon England. Ideally more general themes such as Religion, Social Structure, Kingship and so on could all do with being included, though I guess the fear is not to make the article too long. Harthacanute 01:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Right, I've made some changes to this page and Anglo-Saxon England. I've divided up this page into a Chronology section and a Themes section. I'll be doing more work on the Themes soon. Harthacanute 12:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a very "generic" problem on Wikipedia, and it may be wise to address it on WP:VP. Take Franks vs. Frankish Empire, or any other historical people. Of course these articles will overlap, but they vary in scope. The article about the people should talk about their origin, their culture, their genetics etc., while the "territorial" article should deal with timelines of histrical events, battles, rulers, etc. So, yes, they are each other's main articles, the "Anglo-Saxon" one will have a section "Anglo-Saxon England", and "Anglo-Saxon England" will have a section "The Anglo-Saxons". But I would argue that the "themes" section is superfluous here, essentially duplicating the "Culture" section at Anglo-Saxons. Let this article be purely chronological. Your point about "thematic ideas not fitting" is valid, Harthacanute, but it is still enough to list them once. dab (ᛏ) 12:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I generally agree that there should be a separate page for the Anglo-Saxon people covering culture, language etc.. I don't beleive it's possible to separate these from Anglo-Saxon history (as I'm sure you'll agree there's more to history than battles and kings). I suppose there's no easy way out of the problem, though, and clearly a lot of people have put much time into this "generic" problem! I'll play with the article a little more to see if I can iron out these problems.Harthacanute 13:07, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
History on wikipedia generally means chronology of important events, typically political and social. History is a sub-topic of Anglo-Saxon culture no more or less important than the other articles like Literature or Art. There are some things in the "Anglo-Saxon" article that clearly belong in the History article (the invasion dispute). Some things are more grey. --Stbalbach 17:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First King of England?

Did Edgar really consolidate the kingdom or is this just a nationalist subterfuge to evade the reality of a Danish King Knut being the first King of All England??--Jack Upland 07:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the truth of the matter is that no one individual can be singled out as the first king of England, because it purely depends on what we mean by "first king of England". Here are some candidates - Offa, Egbert, Alfred, Athelstan, Edgar. I've never seen Canute being described as it, though I have seen William, which is just as embarrassing since he too was a foreign conqeror. TharkunColl 08:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

At the very least let us know what the bounds of Edgar's kingdom were. By way of comparison, Alfred's kingdom of Wessex never encompassed all of what is now England. William is a different case: he acquired an intact kingdom. He was clearly not the first king; however the English monarchy and the aristocracy derive from the Norman Conquest and he could be placed at the head of a line of succession. Of course there are many breaks in this line, with convoluted dynastic disputes, but nothing as stark as a foreign invasion.

All that aside, I don't really think it's a complicated question. The boundaries of England have existed for a millenium. Who was the first to rule this unified kingdom? Canute is sometimes cited (as a quick google shows).--Jack Upland 00:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Ælle of Sussex? Listed as the first bretwalda in any case. dab (𒁳) 18:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, this evades the point. Bretwalda is one thing. The point is not holding sway over other kingdoms, being top dog, but actually running the place. Not sure why there is such avoidance of the issue. (Because candidate Canute is correct???)--Jack Upland (talk) 09:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably because it's a difficult question to answer. Edward the Elder may not have ruled all of England, but he ruled as far north as the River Humber. Athelstan ruled as far north as the Southern Uplands, well north of the current Anglo-Scottish border in the east, south of it in the west. Edgar ruled all of England that Canute did, so did poor old Æthelred the Unready. Why Canute exactly? Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"king" is a title. In Germanic culture, even a religious office. A king may or may not "run the place". A king may nominally "run the place", but in practice he will always depend on the goodwill of the powers-that-be: Elizabeth II "runs the place" very much nominally by merely ceremonially opening the parliament. Things may stand not all that different for pre-Civil-War kings, such as John of England being forced to sign the Magna Charta. A king "runs the place" excactly to the extent he is being let. dab (𒁳) 12:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

My candidature of Canute was a genuine question. The article on Edgar suggests he was only receiving the nominal allegiances of several other kings for as long as his military dominance lasted. From this discussion I can only presume that before Canute no unified kingdom of England lasted and afterwards it didn't disintegrate. Correct me please if I am wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The kings who are said to have met with Edgar at Chester are not "English" kings, but Welsh and "Scottish". Edgar and Canute may both have supported their candidates as kings in "Scotland", both may have meddled in Ireland. Yes, Canute's empire made him a more powerful ruler than Edgar, but Edgar and Canute both ruled more or less the same parts of modern England. In neither case did they have as much control of events north of the Humber as south of it, and very little north of the Tees, but the same was true of Edward the Confessor and William the Conqueror. While English kings from Æthelstan onwards controlled different parts of Northumbria at different times, there was only one royal mint, at York, in Northumbria and dozens in the south. Æthelstan was able to campaign in "Scotland" and force the temporary submission of the king, which is just as much as William could do 150 years later. Being "king of the English" had no more to do with control of the far north of modern England than being "king of France" depended on control of Burgundy or Provence. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
On this issue, talk of the Scots and the Welsh is a diversion. For the umpteenth time, was Canute's (or Edgar's) kingdom lasting? If not, whose was? William the Conqueror's clearly - whatever troubles he may have had in the north...--Jack Upland (talk) 10:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Edgar and Æthelred ruled the kingdom of England. Canute ruled the kingdom of England. The kingdom of England had more or less the same limits under Edgar and Æthelred as under Canute, not that these can be fixed with much certainty in the tenth and eleventh centuries. If this isn't continuity - "lasting" - what is it? Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

In the article on Edgar it says:

Six kings in Britain, including the kings of Scotland and of Strathclyde, pledged their faith that they would be the king's liege-men on sea and land.

Did these kings include English kings? If so it seems to be more of a case of overlordship.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The lists of kings at Chester are all rather late, at least 150 years after the event, and don't agree among themselves. Put another way, they could be made up. Even the number of kings isn't immutable. Initially there are six, later eight or more. There's a list here: "King Kenneth of Scots, King Malcolm of the Cumbrians, King Magnus of Man and the Isles, King Donald of Strathclyde, Joint-King Hywel of Gwynedd, Joint-King Iago of Gwynedd, King Idwallon of Morgannwg and King Sigefrith (possibly a deputy in Norse York)." It's probably wrong in detail, not least because there are eight rather than six names, but right in the general idea. Those present were mostly kings from Wales, some from Scotland. The only one who many have been a king in England on that list is Sigeferth, and the evidence for his existence is only this forged charter. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

William the Conqueror's kingdom was not "lasting" - under Stephen it fragmented into warring factions, and again under Charles I. So the first person to rule all England, since which time it has never fragmented, is Oliver Cromwell. TharkunColl (talk) 12:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Civil wars don't count. Obviously. If Edgar's kingdom, barring civil wars, was passed down to his successors then he should be recognised as the first king.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Þingalið

I've just done a GA assessment on the article Þingalið. It's mainly OK, although short and possibly a bit pro- in its tone. My main concern with it is a feeling, and I can't really put it any higher than that, that it may be an OR synthesis. I've given some of my reasoning here. I suppose my question is: was the Þingalið really a largely Scandanavian standing army in the employ of the English kings for around 50 years? Grateful if someone with some background in this area could set me straight. Cheers.4u1e (talk) 14:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Map discussion

Yorkshirian recently added this new version of an old map to this article; it was removed by Deacon of Pndapetzim and re-added by Yorkshirian. I'd like to replace it with this map instead, which doesn't use boundaries. The changes were made to several articles, so to centralize discussion, please post at Talk:Mercia#Map if you have an opinion. Mike Christie (talk) 02:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The previous map was incorrect as it shows Cornwall as included in Wessex - this map indicates that this was not the case in 1035. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EmpireNorth.JPG -- William of Malmesbury, writing around 1120, says that King Athelstan of England fixed Cornwall's eastern boundary at the Tamar in 936 after the remaining Cornish had been evicted from Exeter and the rest of Devon in 927 - "Exeter was cleansed of its defilement by wiping out that filthy race". (ref: Professor Philip Payton - (1996). Cornwall. Fowey: Alexander Associates). In 944 Athelstan's successor, Edmund I of England, styled himself 'King of the English and ruler of this province of the Britons' (ref: Malcolm Todd -- The South West to AD 1000 - 1987), an indication of how that accommodation was understood at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.68.25 (talk) 11:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)