Talk:Hindi-Urdu phonology

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's looking good, Tuncrypt. I'm starting to switch from a bullet presentation to prose. kwami (talk) 01:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, and thanks for the edits. The first part of my plan was to wipe out the script- and other non-related material. Now I'm adding in referenced bits from the sources I fortunately have available to me (Shapiro and Masica, plus Ohala on the net). Ohala's about used up and Shapiro is also nearing the end, though the Urdu article from the book Shapiro is in is quite massive, so there's more to come. It'll take a while, but yeah. Tuncrypt (talk) 04:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Minimal pairs of retroflex flaps/plosives

The article says, citing Shapiro:

However, the adoption of English loans with alveolar stops, which are identified with Hindi/Urdu retroflex rather than dental stops (as with bat above), has led to the emergence of minimal pairs, thus conferring marginal phonemic status to the flaps.

Yet Masica, in describing the same phenomenon, specifically says that it does not create any minimal pairs. Does Shapiro provide any examples? Grover cleveland (talk) 15:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. It gives one: "heD 'head' (of a department, organization, etc.) ~ heR 'flock' (regional)...". Can you give me the page number for Masica? Tuncrypt (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I think I misread Masica. He may only be claiming that the specific loanwords reDiyo and roD don't create minimal pairs, not that no such loanwords create minimal pairs -- it's a little unclear. Here is the full quotation (pp. 91-92):
The common English loanwords reDiyo and roD, however, ..., introduce the phone D contrastively (albeit not producing minimal pairs) into the intervocalic and final postvocalic environments previously occupied exclusively by R, thus rendering the earlier allophonic distinction "phonemic", according to one criterion for deciding such matters. Grover cleveland (talk) 04:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
It might be a good idea to add the example (heD/heR) to the article. Grover cleveland (talk) 04:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Status of /ʔ/

In this page /ʔ/ is not listed, but it would most certainly seem to exist in Urdu. I do remember reading that Hindi speakers, and even Urdu speakers in casual speech, drop /ʔ/ altogether, but I think it would still be good to discuss it. 67.165.249.115 (talk) 18:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, I just noticed that /ʒ/ is not mentioned either, but it still seems present in Urdu though Hindi speakers may replace it with /dʒ/. I personally don't feel qualified enough to actually write these things into the article, but I'm hoping that I can just bring this to the attentions of those who are qualified enough. 67.165.249.115 (talk) 20:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for these claims? Cheers. Grover cleveland (talk) 06:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
About ʒ I don't know but ʔ will be addressed. It is used in hypercorrect Urdu. Tuncrypt (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] /ʂ/ and /ɳ/

It's my understanding that /ʂ/ and /ɳ/ are both found only in hypercorrect pronunciation of Sanskrit loanwords, and as allophones of /ʃ/ and /n/ when immediately preceding or following retroflex plosives. Currently /ɳ/ appears in the table of consonants as a marginal phoneme, while /ʂ/ is absent. Would there be any objection to adding /ʂ/ as another marginal phoneme? Cheers. Grover cleveland 07:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

ɳ is not an allophone of n like ʂ is of ʃ. Tuncrypt 18:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
And /ɳ/ and [ʂ] are not "hypercorrect" per se like ʔ in Urdu... they're just correct, in a standard sort of way. Tuncrypt 18:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table

Aeusoes. I guess there's no problem with condensing together Approximant and Lateral Approximant. But I don't understand your condensing of Dental and Alveolar, and your movement of Nasal to the top. Please discuss. Tuncrypt 18:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Certainly. The official IPA charts I've seen put nasal as the first row and if I recall correctly, instructional guides say to put it as the top one. I condensed dental and alveolar because there is no contrast between any consonant on just the dental/alveolar feature. Also, since the dental consonants were already marked with a dental diacritic, it is clear which ones are dental and which are alveolar (if there are other dental consonants, a diacritic can go below this ones as well). I also changed stop to plosive but I assume since you aren't asking why that that's not a controversial change. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] /ɳ/ and /ɽ̃/

I've always wondered about ɳ. Could someone give a word where it exists (aside from nasal assimilation cases, such as ʈəɳɖ 'cold'). In all the words which have the letter ण (e.g. कारण), it seems to me that those are really cases of ɽ̃ (sort of the opposite of what is attributed to Shapiro on the actual page--in that (IMHO) the ɽ̃ is the underlying phoneme (for borrowings anyway), but the ɳ is the allomorph. But even then, not of ɽ̃ , but rather just some unspecified N at the same point of articulation as the following consonant ɖ, ʈ, etc.)

I realize that ण is considered a nasal being in the 5th line of the वर्णमाला, but really, it's always a nasalized retroflex flap instead of the plain vanilla nasal (except where it is assimilation), no? Bob Eaton —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.33.214 (talk) 13:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Though I guess the way things are are the ways things are for etymological (e.g. "five corresponding nasal stops") and cross-linguistic comparison purposes. Tuncrypt (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hindu/Hindi

I'm not a expert in this area, but anyway, should Hindu be corrected to Hindi in the first paragraph? In the phrase "Hindu and Urdu." 71.174.112.73 (talk) 02:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Voiced postalveolar fricative?

According to Persian phonology, Persian has the voiced postalveolar fricative [ʒ]. This sound is not included in the list of phonemes introduced to Hindi-Urdu in Persian loan words, though. Any particular reason why not? Was it replaced by something else? —Angr If you've written a quality article... 12:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

list some words with it Tuncrypt (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know any; I don't know Persian. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 23:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
well it's mostly like to have been transposed to dʒ Tuncrypt (talk) 00:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)