Talk:Himiltrude

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[edit] Himiltrude

Would you like to actually provide a source, instead of simply making crude edits to claim that Charlemagne was actually married to Himiltrude? Michael Sanders 16:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, focusing solely on the Himiltrud & other wifes issue: you are assuming a lot and end up pushing a certain POV.

• Looking at Einhard doesn't make your case, as Einhard (ch. 20) says "Erat ei filius nomine Pippinus ex concubina editus ..." - He calls her simply a concubine, and says nothing about Friedelehe.
• However, in other sources, she is simply referred to as Charles' wife, e.g. a letter by the Pope.
• If you can read German, this should be interesting: http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/karolinger_familie_karls/himiltrud_frankenkoenigin_769.html
• Some historians have tried to solve this contradiction by supposing the concept of "Friedelehe", a form of marriage above concubinage and below sacramental marriage. They might be right, they might be wrong but it is still only a theory and to my knowledge it is nowadays not generally accepted.
• I don't have P. Riche at hand but I think I remember him placing Himiltrud among "Desiderata" and Hildegard without distinction.
• And anywhere I look I can see the numbering 1. Himiltrud, 2. "Desiderata", 3. Hildegard, even among those that subscribe to the Friedelehe concept - and unsurprisingly so: a Friedelwife is a special kind of wife but a wife nonetheless.
• Certainly, the Charlemagne biography by Dieter Hägermann, which I have at hand, does so, and argues that Einhard called Himilitrud concubine to protect his lord against accusations of polygamy.

In your footnote, you are quoting Riche who however merely quotes Einhard here. Also you turn Chamberlin's quite nuanced statement and his "perhabs could be compared" into that terrible "common law marriage" statement - common law is English law and does not apply here. And your "partner" elsewhere is really just ugly.

That is certainly enough to cast doubt on your "statements of fact". I never tried to remove the Friedelehe concept out of WP - but to simply state it as fact, to write Himiltrud the wife (whether Friedelwife or full wife) out of history, to ignore the status of the Friedelehe as a construct, to avoid unfitting sources, is unacceptable. Str1977 ^(talk) 17:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)