Talk:Hilo, Hawaii
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The picture located on this page is actually a picture of downtown Waikiki, HI. It is not an acurate picture of Hilo, HI.
Contents |
[edit] Sugar Town Foodscapes
Hawai´i Plantation Days Remembered
- by Yasushi Scotch Kurisu (7" x 10", 112 pp.)
- Softcover, perfect bound :: ISBN 0-9705787-1-7
The Big Island's Hilo Coast was the classic plantation community
RJBurkhart 21:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Physical Oceanography
What does Hilo have to do with Physical Oceanography? If you restore the category link, please give a reason here. Sowelilitokiemu 20:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
I'm puzzled by the pronunciation [ˈhiːlɛʊ] given, specifically the final syllable. Should it read [ˈhiːloʊ]? Sdoerr 14:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- It should. I corrected it. --Targeman 17:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] City Status
So the Hawaii page says Honolulu is the only city in Hawaii, and this page refers to Hilo as a city at least twice. Could someone explain the discrepancy? -Laikalynx 14:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Honolulu is incorporated where as Hilo is an unincorporated city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.133.219 (talk) 03:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- I would guess that the article calls Hilo a city in the sense of "an urban area with dense population", not in a governmental sense. Honolulu is somewhat different: although there's a CDP of Honolulu (somewhat similiar to that of Hilo), all of Oahu is part of the City and County of Honolulu. Nyttend 04:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Is Hilo not an inhabited urban area of a dense population? Is it not "the second largest city in the state", "the southernmost city in the United States", "the wettest city"? Obviously it is not an incorporated city or technically classified by the U.S. census as a city, but it was not even technically classified as a "census-designated place" for most of the existence of the city so it is not only obscurantist to define it as a census-designated place but outright false for the totality of "Hilo". —Centrx→talk • 21:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hawaii says that it's not a city, so it's not a city. I don't see how it matters that Hilo wasn't a CDP until 1980; it is now, and therefore it is outright true to define it as a census-designated place. Nyttend (talk) 22:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- The English language says it is a city. This is an encyclopedia in the English language, not a government census. Hilo is not incorporated as a city, but it is nevertheless accurate and clear to describe it as a city, perhaps an "unincorporated city"? It matters that Hilo was not a CDP until 1980 because "census-designated place" is a term invented in 1980, which did not exist before and at any time may be changed again for the purposes of the U.S. Census. It would then suddenly cease to be true not because of any change in city--the unincorporated city was the same unincorporated city the day before and the day after the designation changed--but because the language was changed. It is fine for the Census to invent terms which clarify its statistics, but the English language is not determined by government decree. So, it is both theoretically more accurate to call it a city, and practically more helpful to any reader trying to understand what this place is. (Note that "unincorporated city" is fine because a) corporation is a rather basic concept with a long history in the language, its meaning is independent of a government release; and b) "city" remains clearly in the phrase.) —Centrx→talk • 01:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Also, "city" is actually much more precise than "census-designated place". A census-designated place is not necessary a real urban center, it may e.g. be a military base; and a census-designated place may actually cover, intersect, or include an incorporated place. Even if Hawaii called it a "city", the U.S. Census might still call it a "census-designated place", and then we would be conflicted because different government entities call it different things, not because there is any confusion in reality. —Centrx→talk • 01:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- I might call a community of 40000 people a town; how do you know that it's really a city and not a town? Are you desirous of changing Russell Springs, Kansas away from being a city, since the common definition of "city" doesn't include communities of 32 people, or Hempstead, New York| away from a village, because communities of 52000 people aren't often called villages? Wikipedia uses official designations because they're verifiable, and because local government (or lack thereof) can reliably be sourced. If the language changes one day, Wikipedia's language should change, because Wikipedia is based on what the sources say, not on the editors' feelings about whether those sources "seem" right. Nyttend (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- The local government refers to Hilo as a city, as do books, maps, and newspapers. See Website of the State of Hawaii. See Google Books: city hilo; compare Google Books: hilo "census-designated place". "Census-designated place" is a word invented for the specific purposes of the U.S. Census and used elsewhere only in reference to it. —Centrx→talk • 00:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Regardless, Hilo is not a city. There is but one city in Hawaii: Honolulu. Nyttend (talk) 01:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Every source, including the one you pretended above was so important--the local government--disagrees with you. If you believe as you said above that Wikipedia is based on what the sources say not the editors' feelings about what seems right, then your course of action is clear.
- Also, the word "city" is not confined to corporations with mayors. The primary definitions in both the Oxford English Dictionary and Webster are a "a large town", or an inhabited place with "a title ranking above that of ‘town’". I am not wed to the word "city", but "census-designated place" is inappropriate. Encarta has "community", but that is a wishy-washy term that does not really apply to an inhabited place of 55 square miles and 40,000 people most of whom are not going to know each other. —Centrx→talk • 01:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Regardless, Hilo is not a city. There is but one city in Hawaii: Honolulu. Nyttend (talk) 01:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- The local government refers to Hilo as a city, as do books, maps, and newspapers. See Website of the State of Hawaii. See Google Books: city hilo; compare Google Books: hilo "census-designated place". "Census-designated place" is a word invented for the specific purposes of the U.S. Census and used elsewhere only in reference to it. —Centrx→talk • 00:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- I might call a community of 40000 people a town; how do you know that it's really a city and not a town? Are you desirous of changing Russell Springs, Kansas away from being a city, since the common definition of "city" doesn't include communities of 32 people, or Hempstead, New York| away from a village, because communities of 52000 people aren't often called villages? Wikipedia uses official designations because they're verifiable, and because local government (or lack thereof) can reliably be sourced. If the language changes one day, Wikipedia's language should change, because Wikipedia is based on what the sources say, not on the editors' feelings about whether those sources "seem" right. Nyttend (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Also, "city" is actually much more precise than "census-designated place". A census-designated place is not necessary a real urban center, it may e.g. be a military base; and a census-designated place may actually cover, intersect, or include an incorporated place. Even if Hawaii called it a "city", the U.S. Census might still call it a "census-designated place", and then we would be conflicted because different government entities call it different things, not because there is any confusion in reality. —Centrx→talk • 01:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- The English language says it is a city. This is an encyclopedia in the English language, not a government census. Hilo is not incorporated as a city, but it is nevertheless accurate and clear to describe it as a city, perhaps an "unincorporated city"? It matters that Hilo was not a CDP until 1980 because "census-designated place" is a term invented in 1980, which did not exist before and at any time may be changed again for the purposes of the U.S. Census. It would then suddenly cease to be true not because of any change in city--the unincorporated city was the same unincorporated city the day before and the day after the designation changed--but because the language was changed. It is fine for the Census to invent terms which clarify its statistics, but the English language is not determined by government decree. So, it is both theoretically more accurate to call it a city, and practically more helpful to any reader trying to understand what this place is. (Note that "unincorporated city" is fine because a) corporation is a rather basic concept with a long history in the language, its meaning is independent of a government release; and b) "city" remains clearly in the phrase.) —Centrx→talk • 01:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
[unindent] Throughout Wikipedia, municipality and other community articles for the USA have their "statuses" determined by the legal standing of those municipalities and other communities. Hilo is not legally a city; regardless of broad usage as listed in those various places, it must not be listed as a city in order to comply with municipalities and other communities nationwide. Nyttend (talk) 02:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Has this been discussed anywhere? The standard everywhere else on Wikipedia is neutral point of view and verifiability in reliable sources, and this is no exception. You seem to be grasping at whatever argument you can conceive to label this city a "census-designated place", and then when your argument is proven invalid you invent a new one. —Centrx→talk • 03:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- To the contrary: you have no official sources that it's a city. Casual references such as these aren't definitive; otherwise, we could call any Kansas city a town, because a state-run agency says that they are. Similarly, what would you say about the village of Hempstead, New York, with nearly half again as many people as Hilo and a denser population than Los Angeles or Boston? Finally, going for the lexical definition: when legal standing (such as that of being a city) is involved, the official governmental designation has to be followed, as a contravention of the legal definition cannot possibly be right. Nyttend (talk) 12:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
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- If you look at the state of Hawaii search page I linked, maps published by the Hawaii County Department of Public Works and official meteorological publications, among others, call it a "city". Official publications also call it a "town". None call it a "census-designated place" except specifically for demographic data obtained from the U.S. Census Bureau. None of the examples you give, whether Kansas cities, New York villages, or major national cities, should be described in Wikipedia primarily or throughout as a "census-designated place".
- Also, in general, legal declarations are often fickle, contradictory, and designed to rigidly classify than to describe; they are more casual than the meanings of words. It is far better to follow the established wisdom of thousands of years and dedicated intellects than to follow the latest legalisms promulgated by an over-worked legislature--and more people understand the established words, which is the purpose of language in the first place. —Centrx→talk • 18:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- My point with the other communities was specifically to answer your objections above: to say that those places should be called what they were, not to say that they were CDPs. As far as legal designations: they don't change much. When you get to local government, changing is very inconvenient; imagine if (assuming you're in the mainland USA) your state decided to declare that all municipalities were suddenly "burgs"; even if the way they functioned was no different, the paperwork would be immense. Because local government is a creature of the state, a state cannot be incorrect when it declares that a specific government is a specific type; therefore, anything in conflict with the designation (including the Census Bureau; see Harrogate vs. Harrogate-Shawanee, Tennessee) isn't reliable for that purpose. Nyttend (talk) 00:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- While it is generally okay that ordinary words like "city", "town", or "village" are currently the standards for state governments, we should not change from them if those state governments were to suddenly invent new terms like "census-designated place", which was invented fairly recently. Town seems to make sense in this case; it does not step on the toes of the the Hawaii state government declaring that there is Only One City in Hawaii. —Centrx→talk • 07:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- My point with the other communities was specifically to answer your objections above: to say that those places should be called what they were, not to say that they were CDPs. As far as legal designations: they don't change much. When you get to local government, changing is very inconvenient; imagine if (assuming you're in the mainland USA) your state decided to declare that all municipalities were suddenly "burgs"; even if the way they functioned was no different, the paperwork would be immense. Because local government is a creature of the state, a state cannot be incorrect when it declares that a specific government is a specific type; therefore, anything in conflict with the designation (including the Census Bureau; see Harrogate vs. Harrogate-Shawanee, Tennessee) isn't reliable for that purpose. Nyttend (talk) 00:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] removed ", including a U.S. Courthouse"
Under the government section, I changed "Hilo is home to county, state, and federal offices, including a U.S. Courthouse." to "Hilo is home to county, state, and federal offices." Although the "Federal Building, U.S. Post Office, and Courthouse" at Hilo, HI exists, the building is no longer a U.S. Courthouse nor is it used as a courthouse. So to say it IS home to a U.S. Courthouse is misleading. Perhaps it WAS home to a U.S. Courthouse may be correct, but that can be done by someone else. Here's my reference.
64.75.136.234 (talk) 00:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)SMtg
