Talk:Hillel the Elder

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The original rule calls for almost saintly behavour between people living in close proximity. Whilst there are doubts as to the practically of this, the fact that it is not at all easy to love somebody from a great distance means that in this for the rule applies to ones neighbor rather than to ones fellow citizen. However when one looks at Hillel's version or corrolory, namely not to do harm, the application can be a lot more wide-spread and still be very practical. Thus by avoiding the use of petreoleum combustion and CO2 emmissions one is helping the whole world, not just oneself or the surrounding community. This is not a possible effect if only the positive version of the rule were being followed. Thus Hillel's version is both more practical and also far more general. It applies to business ethics in a macroeconomic setting and (for example) would stop a person from holding land out of use for purposes of speculation, because in so doing he causes the competition to use the rest of the land to raise land prices and the its rent (ground-rent). Thus by the universal adoption Hillel's version of the rule there would be less poverty and unemployment. The original version of the rule implies the need for giving charity. This when attempted on a national scale results in socialism and the welfare state. There are srtrong religious overtones to both of these views, which deserve attention in another article. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hillel_the_Elder" The economic consequences of Hillel's corrolory to the Rule are a means of appreciating the differences between the original and Hillel's version. The original rule applies to a local community and it is therefore a micro-economic form of social behavour. However the Corrolory of Hillel is not limited to the surrounding community because (for example) by burning fuel and damaging the ozone layer and increasing the hot-house gasses effect etc., the action affects a far greater nubmer of people. Therefore Hillel's version of the Rule is a macro-economic instruction about behavour and as such is drastically changed. This is not the first example of where Hillel chose to change our "unchangable" Torah, the introduction of the Prosbul is the other case in point. (edit)
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[edit] Dates

If we don't know the exact range of dates when Hillel lived, we should at least say something more helpful than "in the time of King Herod", which could refer to any of several kings of that name. --Jim Henry 17:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Golden Rule

BTW, from the article: That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest (is commentary, the explanation); go and study it. (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Shabbat 31a. See the ethic of reciprocity or "The Golden rule") Well, that's partly true. Hillel's rule seems that it would more accurately be described as the Silver Rule, which is the converse of the Golden Rule. The Golden Rule says "*Do* unto others as you want them to do to you", the Silver Rule says "*Don't* do unto others as you wouldn't want them to do to you" -- one is prescriptive, the other is restrictive. However, I'm not confident enough to make a change to the article in this regard on my own -- I would rather discuss it here first. --HanClinto 17:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Personally I've heard both forms attributed as "the golden rule". IMHO, one of the things that makes the golden rule so "golden" is it's universal applicability and countless sources. (See the wikipedia page on Ethic of reciprocity for some of the rather varied and diverse places it can be found in form or another). I don't think there is any specific standard for the golden rule, but rather the ethic underlying it, and many ways of expressing that ethic, all of which can be referred to as the golden rule. --Bachrach44 16:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The positive assertion of the golden rule, which post-dates the Hillel quote is more appropriately considered the silver rule. I agree that there is a great difference. The passivistic Hillel approach admonishes wrong-doing while the more Christian approach commends intervention. The positivistic approach compels action, the negative or neutral Hillel approach prohibits action. They both require one to avoid wrong-doing, but the postivistic command then goes further to compel "good deeds". This can be interpreted either as a good thing in that it promotes the "good samaritan" approach to loving thy neighbor or as a bad thing if your idea of what is good differs from thy neighbor. No western country has adopted a "good samaritan" law precicely because we do not feel that intervention should be compelled. The negative approach considers that and accomodates it. That is why, in my opinion, it rings more true than the later "golden rule."

DHC comments. It has not been made sufficiently clear what is the difference between the original version of the Rule and Hillels version. The original rule calls for almost saintly behavour between people living in close proximity. Whilst there are doubts as to the practically of this, the fact that it is not at all easy to love somebody from a great distance means that in this for the rule applies to ones neighbor rather than to ones fellow citizen.

However when one looks at Hillel's version or corrolory, namely not to do harm, the application can be a lot more wide-spread and still be very practical. Thus by avoiding the use of petreoleum combustion and CO2 emmissions one is helping the whole world, not just oneself or the surrounding community. This is not a possible effect if only the positive version of the rule were being followed. Thus Hillel's version is both more practical and also far more general. It applies to business ethics in a macroeconomic setting and (for example) would stop a person from holding land out of use for purposes of speculation, because in so doing he causes the competition to use the rest of the land to raise land prices and the its rent (ground-rent). Thus by the universal adoption Hillel's version of the rule there would be less poverty and unemployment.

The original version of the rule implies the need for giving charity. This when attempted on a national scale results in socialism and the welfare state. There are srtrong religious overtones to both of these views, which deserve attention in another artical.

Shouldn't the Seven Rules of Hillel (of Biblical literary interpretation) be at least mentioned in the article? I have a link to a website where they can be found. The Seven Rules of Hillel TurtleofXanth 16:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Golden Rule 2

This section is oddly worded: It implies that Hillel wrote Pirkei Avot, which he most DEFINITELY did not! Please reword the first sentence of the paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.68.129.127 (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Three things. First of all, please don't insert comments at the beginning of a section like that. If you're worried about them being seen, create a new section, like I've just done.

Second of all, please sign your posts.

Third of all, the section is not at all oddly worded. There are groupings in Pirkei Avot, and the section refers to the maxim of Hillel that introduces the things that he said. It's not poorly worded; you just misunderstood it. -LisaLiel (talk) 23:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tomb

I know it's odd to make a citation request in a photo's caption, but there doesn't seem to be mention of Hillel's tomb anywhere in the article. Where is the tomb? If the tomb location is known, when was it discovered? If it was always known and can be verified, how was this done? Is there any debate over the authenticity of the tomb? The image is unsourced, and the uploader claimed to be the creator of the image, so we really don't have much background info here.

Thanks for this comment. I've added a source. See google results for several more sources about Hillel being buried in Meron. [1]. I'm not aware of disputes over this location. Amoruso 01:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

These sources have no historical basis. They are based on the divination of Yitzchak Luria in the 16th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.134.185 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Years of Nasi

According to History of the Re-established Sanhedrin Hillel served as Nasi from 30 BCE to 10 BCE, not 20 BCE to 20 CE. Anomalocaris 00:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] golden rule

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow" What word is here translated as "fellow"? Is it the same word that is also often translated "neighbor," as in "love your neighbor"? 67.170.55.241 04:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The word translated as "fellow" is haver. This means "friend", or "comrade". In Tannaitic times, a haver was a meticulously pious person, who was particularly careful with issues of purity and impurity, and tithing.

The word translated as "neighbor" in "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is rei'ah, which also indicates a fellowship of sorts. In both cases, Jewish law applies this solely to fellow Jews. LisaLiel (talk) 03:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Lisa, thanks for your answer. Not what I expected, but that just means it's a better answer. Leadwind (talk) 05:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When I Am "Only" For Myself

People should stop changing the translation of Hillel's maxim to include the word "only". The text of the maxim is:

Eem eyn ani li, mi li? If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

U-ch'she'ani l'atzmi, ma ani? And when I am for myself, what am I?

V'eem lo achshav, eymatai? And if not now, when?

I understand that many people have interpreted the second line of these three as modifying the first, so as to say that despite the need to act on ones own behalf, one should not only think of oneself. And while that may be good advice, it is most certainly not the plain meaning of Hillel's statement. Rather, it is as logical as Hillel tends to be. It is a continuation of the first line. One must act on ones own behalf, because who else will? Which then begs the question: what am "I"? What is my nature, so that I can determine whether an action truly is in my own best interest?

When reading a statement that is difficult to understand on its face, it is often tempting to rewrite the statement to make it easier to understand. But a lot more is gained by leaving the statement alone and spending the time and energy to try and understand it. LisaLiel (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)