Talk:Hesse

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Hi

first time on this website and also i'm realy impressed i noticed an error an wanted to now what to do about it and how ?

The Error:

  The State should be called "Hessen" and not "Hesse". Hesse could be used 
  in a sentence like "he is an californian" -> "he is a hesse" and in german 
  "Er ist ein Hesse."
Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. According to the article, it's Hessen in German, but Hesse in French and English. Is this incorrect? -- Tim Starling 02:04, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
No it really is called Hesse in English. Rmhermen 02:08, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
And the equivalent of "Er ist ein Hesse" would be "He is a Hessian". Nunh-huh 02:12, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
But this is very funny: "Hessen is also the name of the German writer Hermann Hesse, as well as the German mathematician Otto Hesse." (You know: Chile is also the name of the german minister Otto Schily, Helmut Kohl also the name of german president Horst Köhler)

It's not really good English, but instead it's copying the French, like with Cologne and Munich, to say "Hesse"--if it has to be changed from the German, it should be changed to a more decidedly English form of "Hessia." But unfortunately, I haven't been able to persuade a majority of the English-speaking world of this yet.

Well, what does "good English" mean if it is just a private preference? For historical reasons, Hessen is called Hesse in English (and I don't think it's borrowing from French, but even if it where, so it would be then) is the word people will search for, check, etc. I think it is completely contrary to Wiki policy, and also not helpful, to go about and change this to "Hessia" because of a personal idiosyncracy. Clossius

Contents

[edit] Hesse-Darmstadt had sided with the winning Prussia.

"It managed to defend its autonomy because in the War of 1866 it had sided with the winning Prussia." That's false. In fact both the "Grand Duchy of Hesse" (Hesse-Darmstadt) and the "Electorate of Hesse" (Hesse-Kassel) joined the Austrian side. A reason for the retention of the autonomy/independence of Hesse-Darmstadt could have been the family relations of the ruling family with the British and the Russian ruling dynasties. As consequence of the war Hesse-Darmstadt had to pay 3 million guldens at Prussia and accept the annexation of the landgraviate (Landgrafschaft) Homburg, parts of the districts of Gießen, Rödelheim, Niederursel with a total area of 830 qkm and a number of inhabitants of about 47.000. In exchange it received parts of Katzenberg, Nanheim, Reichelsheim, Trais, Dortelweil and Haarheim (about 83 qkm with 12.000 inhabitants). saftwuerstel 12:30, 19 Jun 2005

The family relations between the ruling family of Hesse-Darmstadt and the British ruling dynasty were definitely not the reason for preserving the independence of Hesse-Darmstadt after it lost the war against Prussia in 1866. The family relations between the British royal family and the king of Hanover had been far closer than the relations between Hesse-Darmstadt and the British ruling dynasty. Nevertheless Hanover was annexed by Prussia following the war of 1866. As far as I know, the main reason for not annexing Hesse-Darmstadt was that Prussia had no interest in provoking France at that time. Prussia needed some additional years to prepare war against France in 1866. As well, Prussia wanted to win Austria as a future ally after 1866. Prussia definitely had no interest in provoking Austria more than necessary. Blinder Seher 16:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hessen

It's really called "Hessen" - never "Hesse". The Americans from the Wiesbaden-Erbenheim Airbase also say "Hessen". They should know the spelling.

If you're in California you might end up saying "California" as well, even in German -- but still the German name for it is "Kalifornien", just as "Hesse" is the English name for "Hessen". Look it up: [1] (and compare it to [2]) -- H005 09:30, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Yep, I hate the English name too but unfortunately that's life! – Jared Preston 10:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • sorry guys...this is not about language...it is called Hessen as a matter of fact. You wouldn't call florida florid ... now would you? We need to change this!
No, we wouldn't because Florida is English like Hesse is. Charles 03:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

UserDoe 01:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hessen again

I realise that the discussion about the official English name has been dormant for quite a while, but I'd like to reopen it. In Europe, nothing is a matter of personal taste. There are guidelines for everything, and the English style guide posted by the European Commission clearly states on page 98 that the English name for Hessen is Hessen. --DrTorstenHenning 19:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This just seems a matter of English-speaking arrogance: If we change their names (like "California" into "Kalifornien"), they seem to want to be allowed to change German Names, too. So they do it without any sense. Every German, and probably most English-speaking who have already visited Hessen, know that "Hessen" is the right spelling, but here, in the anarchic Wikipedia, they just don't care. They must be allowed to change names into senselessness. Funny thing about it is: The local dialect pronounces "Hessen" as "Hesse" as well, so maybe some English-speaker had picked it up from them and by now convinced most part of the Wikipedians that it has to be right. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.178.227.190 (talk) 04:29:44, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
So it's okay to call California "Kalifornien", but it is not okay for anglophones to use the established English name for this area? Hesse predates Wikipedia, my ignorant friend. I'm sure if I had never heard of Hesse like some people who visit it, I might be mistaken into using the German name in English. Hessen, however, is not the English name. Charles 04:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Could you provide any authoritative source for that? Otherwise, it looks like we have to distinguish between the "ancient" Hesse, which was a sovereign entity, and between today's Hessen, which is a Land of the Federal Republic of Germany. By the way, in Germany we do not change names and geographical objects of countries or regions where German is not an official language as we please. We look them up in "Selected Exonyms of the German Language", which is a list maintained by our Government's Permanent Committee on Geographical Names (StAGN). --DrTorstenHenning 10:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Huh? Couldn't you say that the genius committee to which you look to is the one that changes names? Charles 11:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
What is your point? First: Can you provide any reputable source that says that the name of the state that I live in is not "Hessen"? Then we would have to decide which of our sources is to be believed. second: The Committee that you do not seem to like prevents the arbitrary Germanisation of foreign names, so why do I feel a certain resentment against it in your words? --DrTorstenHenning 12:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
The point is, I don't resent it. I don't mind going to Germany (I am of pure paternal German descent, by the way) and being told about how people have enjoyed visiting Kanada or Neuschottland (I have heard and read both) and I wouldn't even mind being called Karl, Carlos, Karel or Carlo!. I've been called all of those and more. To me, this seems to be your personal opinion of the state you live in. I never said the state you lived in was not Hessen. That's like you telling me that I don't like in Kanada. I do, but it is called Canada in my language just as Hesse is called that in English. At this point, calling it anything else is akin to the Turin/Torino thing. Otherwise-unknowing people were exposed to the local form not terribly common in English, but that doesn't change the English name. Charles 12:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
So should the article say that (a) "Hessen" is an alternative English name or (b) the German name "Hessen" is often used in English texts as well (footnote: particularly those prepared for or by the European Commission, reference!)? --DrTorstenHenning 13:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I should say that the German form, Hessen, is used occasionally in English in lieu of the form Hesse. Charles 23:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
@DrTorstenHenning: It is definitely not true, that we don't use specific German names for geographical objects of countries or regions where German is not an official language. Of course, we do call California Kalifornien in German, like Kanada instead of Canada or Spanien instead of España. Where is the problem? Why do not use the English word Hesse in English texts? I am from Hesse as well, and I don't have a problem with the traditional English name. If there is a specific English name for our state, it seems that the English regard Hesse as worth having a specific English name. Finally it's true, that the country's name in the south Hessian dialect is Hesse too; the English use the hessian name for Hesse. :-) Blinder Seher 16:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Did I ever claim anything different? I just stated that the German names we use are standardised. And the reason for not using the English Hesse in contemporary English is simple: if an overwhelming majority of English speakers uses the German form Hessen, including, as I stated, the European Commission, and the Americans who live here, why shouldn't I? After all, we quit saying Neu-York and Got[h]enburg in German as well, even though these are the traditional German names for New York and Göteborg, so why shouldn't the global trend towards using the native names wherever possible (Mumbai, Kolkata, Myanmar, Warszawa, ...) continue? --DrTorstenHenning 13:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Sorry to say this...but...It's called Hessen, i used to work and live in Hessen a while ago. I never spelled it "Hesse" "Hesse" is only used in terms of "Der Hesse" means that this person lives in Hessen. It's somehow embarrassing to see it here as "Hesse" unwilling to be changed. We need to change it, or we might look arrogant and selfish.

UserDoe 01:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you don't spell it Hesse or not, it is Hesse in English. Be embarrassed all you want, you ought to be with all of this ignorance on what is English and what is not. Charles 03:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation?

Was wondering if anyone knows how 'Hesse' is actually pronounced. Is it pronounced 'Hess' with a silent e or 'Hessy' or what? It would be useful to include an IPA rendition of it at the article's head, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't know.

Oh, and I've only ever heard it referred to as Hessen in the UK, even though we do use English translations for other states. See this page here http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/798fc53e-6532-11dc-bf89-0000779fd2ac.html and look at the 5th paragraph down. Any google news search for 'Hessen' will show you that this article is not alone. Perhaps partly because of the problems with pronunciation, Hessen is always used colloquially, in my experience. Surely Wikipedia should follow colloquial trends? After all, the page for Gdansk is not called Dansic, and the page for Krakow isn't Cracow. Why should Hessen be any different?

You actually mentioned two of the most disputed names on Wikipedia. Charles 23:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Wow, looking at their talk pages, I see I have, but still, the fact is, on these pages it was finally decided to use their current Polish names as opposed the older and increasingly redundant English versions. Oh, and do you know how to pronounce Hesse correctly? Please someone add a pronunciation! I have nothing against the English word at all (although I'd prefer Hessia) but if no one knows how to pronounce this word, then surely it's only a matter of time before it becomes completely redundant. Perhaps if you're eager to preserve the English version, a pronunciation guide might encourage its use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.212.13 (talk) 23:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name dispute, hopefully the last time

Hi. I haven't been part of the previous disputes, but I must admit, I am a bit disturbed by the insistence of those users who insisted that English "Hesse" is incorrect. I am a Hessian, learnt to use the correct English form Hesse in school, and have always used it. In English literature, it goes back at least to the 18th century (for example, it is used in the 1777 satire "The Sale of the Hessians", sometimes ascribed to Benjamin Franklin).

The State Government of Hesse (Hessische Landesregierung) uses "Hesse", as visible here and here. They should know.

Other examples are the German Museum of Architecture (here) and the German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD - here).

The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica exclusively uses the term Hesse (see here), which turns up in its index more than 300 times.

athinaios 22:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)