Talk:Hermaphrodite

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[edit] Hermaphroditism in animals

I did some clean up (Finally!) of the subsection. I suggest that anyone editing this section keeps in mind that for biologist, gender is not the correct term when referring to hermaphrodites. We use the word sex, as in SEX-CHANGING animal. Gender, as I have stated in previous comments, is a social construct and refers to humans. Animals are not of one or another gender but of one or another sex. I also took out the following paragraph and I suggest it only be re-inserted if it can be re-phrased or cited properly:

"The order of sequential hermaphroditism within a species is often driven by resource demands. In a population where resources are scarce and can support limited bearing of young, it is advantageous to have a larger population of males supporting one female. One would expect that a species that typically faces this scenario (such as many clownfish living in a single anemone) would have organisms that start as male, and perhaps one individual per group would have changed to be female at any given time. Where resources are abundant and can support bearing of many young, on the other hand, it is advantageous to have many females mating with a limited number of males, so that more young are produced. One would expect that a species that typically faces this scenario (such as parrotfish that can forage over large distances) would have individuals that start as female, and perhaps one individual per group would have changed to be male at any given time."

I think the idea is right but I found it hard to follow. In my doctoral dissertation I think I have something along the same lines and is better explained. I will added it later, when I have additional time! I also need to add some reference to what I wrote! Sex changing fish is one of my favorite subjects so I would really like to contribute to wikipedia on this!--Reefpicker (talk) 13:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to clean up this subsection. I want to link it to the wikipedia entries on Wrasses and Clownfish, which are models for the study of sex change in fish. The subsection is good but it could be better. For example, it mentions that animals can change "gender" several times. The correct term is sex, as gender is a social construct only used for humans. --Reefpicker (talk) 16:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


The article claims that "gonadal dysgenesis" occurs in "about 1 percent of mammals (including humans)". Should this actually read "about 1 percent of mammal species"? It's difficult to believe that 1% of humans are true hermaphrodites.

--Smallblackflower 18:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC) : This article says "though often as a synonym for transsexual, as true human intersexuals are rare", however, this site, says "There are 40 times more intersexed people than transsexuals." and I believe that to be more accurate. I do not know how to edit the article accordingly, help?

[edit] Innaccuracies about Genetics

"On very rare occasions, such a hermaphrodite can even impregnate itself, but this will result in complications, such as the offspring having identical DNA to its parent. See Simultaneous Hermaphrodites below." Not true, such reproductive behaviour would be selfing, not parthogenesis. They would have a genome constructed from a gene pool that would equal no more than the parental DNA. Which would them very inbred, (mean heterzygosity half the parental level) but still quite genetically dissimilar to their parent. This article also needs a section on the evolutionary and adaptive consequences of hermaphroditism, with attention given to WHY it arises, etc. (Hermaphroditism is an important case study when considering sex evolution and sex maintenance)

   Ludolud 22:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)Ludolud

[edit] Furries

Come on, now... what value do 'furries' have in an article on hermaphroditism?


Just look at some of their art, 90% of the Furry art has breasts, and a large penis.

now, of coarse you don't know this first hand do you?

[edit] Cleanup Tag

What is the rationale for this tag? -- RyanFreisling @ 20:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The PC throwaway line is a riot... "The term intersexual to describe these people is now preferred, and the term "hermaphrodite" is deprecated, since hermaphrodism is not a typical part of the human life cycle." And being "intersexual" is? Who prefers this term anyway. I have not seen it in the scientific literature. I'm of a mind to yank this line.

I would yank it. And anyway, the 'term' Hermaphrodite is still valid, when used to describe the child of Hermes and Aphrodite, to say nothing of the biological case. -- RyanFreisling @ 21:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While I don't care about inclusion of the term either way, stating that it is not a valid term is entirely wrong. Search PubMed with the term 'intersexual' and restrict to human papers and you get 140 returns. For example: "Ethical dilemmas in retrospective studies on genital surgery in the treatment of intersexual infants." Camb Q Healthc Ethics. 2004 Fall;13(4):394-403. Or this NEJM review of a book on the ethics of treatment and understanding intersex patients (from 2000.) http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/342/19/1457
Moreover, 'intersexual' is an adjectival form of intersex, which is used almost exclusively in my experience to describe kids with ambiguous genitalia (as a general group... obviously its more common to say a girl with CAH etc.) Search Pubmed for intersex OR intersexual OR intersexed with the limit 'human' and you get almost 600 returns.
So it is far from a PC term, but rather simply the term that is preferred now by clinicians as well as intersexed people. This is especially the case since most intersex people are not in fact true hermaphrodites – i.e. individuals with both ovarian and testicular tissue (or ovotestis.) NickGorton
I don't think anyone is arguing 'intersexual' isn't a word, the focus of this article is 'hermaphrodite'. -- RyanFreisling @ 01:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I was referring to the original quote, not your comment, Ryan -
"The PC throwaway line is a riot... "The term intersexual to describe these people is now preferred, and the term "hermaphrodite" is deprecated, since hermaphrodism is not a typical part of the human life cycle." And being "intersexual" is? Who prefers this term anyway. I have not seen it in the scientific literature. I'm of a mind to yank this line.
This comment implies (though I will admit doesn't directly state... with that 'well I haven't seen it' line) that intersexual is not used as a term in the medical/scientific literature. And I think the real issue is the confusion between intersexed people and hermaphrodites. While intersexuality is relatively common (for example, just the most common single illness, non-classical CAH is about 1/60-70 XX births.) Taken as a whole and in the broadest sense, all of the conditions regarded as intersexual are about 1/50-100 births. However, true human hermaphrodism is extremely rare. The problem is that people confuse the two all the time. And if you have an article discussing hermaphrodism that mentions human hermaphrodites, I think it bears stressing the fact that hermaphrodites are a minute and particular sub-category of much more common group of intersexed people.
And I think the reason this is important is that people who are intersexed no more like being called hermaphrodites than people with Downs' syndrome like the term 'mongoloid.' And while the original discussant described it as PC-run-amok, I see it as simply being respectful. Not that Dr Downs was a prize either. He originally described children with trisomy 21 as being a 'devolution' of the superior 'Caucasian race' to the inferior 'Mongol race.' But then I imagine I will be accused of PC-run-amok if I prefer to refer to my niece's illness as trisomy 21 rather than use an eponym that honors a dead racist English Pediatrician. ;) NickGorton

[edit] "True" Hermaphrodites

I know it is extremely rare, but if a human has fully functioning sexual organs of both genders, could they self-impregnate? Talk about a hypothetical situation... Xyzzyva 01:06, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I am doing a project for school and I was wondering of the 46 chromosomes that every person male or female; has how many do hermaphrodites have? Do they have an extra two? having both Xx for female and Xy for male? What makes these changes occure in the fetus? What can a mother or father do to avoid having these changes in their unborn child? How do they(or you) feel about having both?


I was under the impression that they had the normal number of genes and such, and that they were either one sex or another being that only one of the sexual organs was actually connected with all the right plumbing. I know that some people do have the XXY or XYY combination and that they are either male or female, not imbetween, I will have to look up on that. I assumed that it was just the outward appearance that was both, and no, I don't think it is possible to self impregnate seeing as if you look at siblings breeding with close to the same genes you get some messed up shit right? but imaging now just having your own genes split with your own and I don't think it could happen even if both 'organs' worked. -Damien Vryce 18:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I did a lot of research about this, but it was a long time ago so I don't have as much information remembered. Anyways, I found out that there have been no known cases of a true hermaphrodite. All human hermaphrodites have had at least one of their sex organs not function. However, there have been a few cases of humans with more than one penis in which both actual function properly! I think there have been cases of females with more than oen clitoris as well, but I'm not too positive about that. Anyways, as long as their is 1 Y chromosome then it will be a guy. There have been cases of XXXY and it is still a guy. There have been XYYY and it is a guy. There have been XXXX and that's a girl because there is no Y. I hope you understand. Theoretically, it would be possible to have up to 5 sex chromosome. When I read about this, it was explained very well how such a thing could be possible but I can't remember. It sounded as if any more than 5 sex chromosomes simply would not be possible though. Regardless, from all that I read I did not find any cases of anyone who actually had 5 sex chromosome. I never read about any XXXXY, nor XXXXX, or any other combinations. But, maybe there have been some cases.
Oh, there is an exception in which you can have a Y chromosome and still be a girl. I can't remember the name of the disorder. In fact, I think I'll research on my own now since I am curious. Anyways, it happens basically because some of the very important genes on the Y chromosome either get translocated onto another chromosome (often the X I think) and then do not function properly. And so, it's like there is a Y chromosome that does not function properly and then it is possible to be an XY female. I don't have any sources for all this information, it was logn ago when I researched about it. I hope this information was somewhat helpful to you though. Jamesters 08:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

There is an article about this here. The person who said 'as long as their is 1 Y chromosome then it will be a guy' is completly incorrect (both grammatically and factually). Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is the term to google for more information.--Smallblackflower 18:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Edited the section on True Hermaphroditism to correct some of the misinformation there. True Hermaphroditism (TH) is the rarest form of intersexuality in humans (according to the Modern Pathology citation), and it is just one of many possible types of Gonadal Dysgenesis. The 1% figure probably refers to all types of Gonadal Dysgenesis. The intersexuality article references a paper that contains statistics on the frequency of different types of intersexuality in humans and a full version can be downloaded from the author's website here http://bms.brown.edu/faculty/f/afs/dimorphic.pdf
It seems to me that important to the understanding of intersexuality is the discussion of karyotypes. Neither this article nor the intersexuality article mentions it, but all scholarly articles on intersexuality seem to recognize how abnormal karyotypes contribute to intersexuality in humans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.180.78.71 (talk) 00:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Copied from Talk:Intersexuality

This site is an 'expert' source, and they have a good argument (on the page linked) as to why 'hermaphrodite' should not be used, and a link to a medical paper on abandoning the term.--Smallblackflower 18:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

We need an expert to determine whether or not "hermaphroditism"/"pseudohermaphroditism" are medically accepted, non-offensive words for "intersexuality".

  • (1) If so, we should merge these articles.
  • (2) If not, we should make the relationship between these more clear by doing this:
    • the article "hermaphroditism" deals only with animals and plants, so it should be moved to two new locations, "hermaphroditism (plants)" and "hermaphroditism (animals)".
    • Then the page "hermaphroditism should be changed into a disambig page with the following options:
  1. for the condition known as hermaphroditism/pseudohermaphroditism in humans, see "intersexuality". This usage now considered offensive by some.
  2. for hermaphroditism in non-human animals, see "hermaphroditism (animals)"
  3. for hermaphroditism in plants, see "hermaphroditism (plants)"

Can we put this proposal up to a vote? JianLi 19:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I really like to know where the citation "However, some of these people do not like the connotations and misunderstanding of the word "intersexed" and thus prefer to use hermaphrodite instead (Chase, 1998)." comes from.
Looking in Google Scholar ([1])

Mr Chase seems to be an expert in plants...how can he be considered an bigger authority than the ISAN on which is the best/more correct word to be used? --192.33.238.6 15:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

until someone can provide a more appropriate reference I remove the sentence. --Dia^ 10:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
well I remove the reference...--Dia^ 10:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] JianLi: "This article is not about hermaphroditism in humans"

I don't believe this sentence is accurate. This article isn't specifically about humans, it's about hermaphroditism in general. The image speaks to the 'etymology' section in particular, but others as well. On this basis, I think the image is appropriate. Jian Li - can you explain your rationale? Thank you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure thing. It was my understanding that some editors decided that the use of "hermaphrodite" in humans was offensive, so they excised all the stuff about human hermaphroditism and moved it to "intersexual" (see intersexual: "The terms hermaphrodite and pseudohermaphrodite, introduced in the 19th century, are now considered misleading and stigmatizing, and patient advocates call for these terms to be abandoned."). I was just trying to ensure uniformity: though I think this article's text is not about hermaphroditism in humans (except for the etymology), I have no strong opinion whether or not this article should be about hermaphroditism in humans; if you think it should, then I won't contest your revert of my edit. JianLi 15:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I totally understand your point about offense - it's something I didn't know so I'll need to learn more about the issue to chime in with an opinion about it. But just off the cuff, it seems to me that the views of some (most?) U.S. intersexual patient advocates shouldn't be the sole determinant of this article's entry. The term is used historically, scientifically and culturally so I think I should learn more. Thanks for the info Jian Li - I'll get knowledgeable and we can work towards addressing the issue of 'intersexual offense' here in such a way that informs and doesn't censor content.
I guess I don't think it's right to 'excise' information about hermaphroditism in humans here solely for fear of offense. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, actually, from the standpoint of elegance, I would agree with you that stuff about human hermaphroditism belongs in the hermaphrodite article. Given the etymology of the word, it is suited especially for humans. And in my limited experience, I never knew that the word was offensive. So that's why I put an "expert" tag on the top of the page: so that somebody with a medical knowledge of the condition could tell us if the word was indeed offensive. JianLi 15:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

In reference to humans, hermpaphroditism is a 19th century term for people today more commonly reffered to as intersexed or intersexual. See Alice Domourat Dreger's Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex and Anne Fausto-Sterling's Sexing the Body for references. I will help clean up this page when I have a chance. Drkamikaze 19:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South Park

I removed an edit due to its' lack of encyclopedic value. Discuss. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Freedman, you deleted this disambiguation, but restored the South Park trivia reference (alleged 'hermaphroditism' of a cartoon character). Can you provide a justification? I disagree at this point with both of your edits. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Hem'?

Anon just added: In popular culture, a hemaphrodite is commonly referred to as a "hem". I have not heard this, nor did that term appear in my cursory research. Discuss. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 12:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe this may have been a mispelling of "herm," although it still probably shouldn't be in the article. At least in America we usually call them "herms." Robot Chicken 00:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jamie Lee Curtis

A quick look at the snopes site on Jamie Lee Curtis points out that it's an unfounded rumour that she's a hermaphrodite. http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.htm 67.183.15.135 05:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

Under the In Animals section, there is some vandalism which is invisible on the Edit this Page tab.

The article says "In humans, these manifestations are often altered (sometimes only cosmetically) to resemble standard male or female anatomy shortly after birth - often without the parents' knowledge or (informed) consent."

I was just wondering which source was used to obtain this information. And if it is still true that doctors can do this sort of thing without parental consent? Ambiguousfreak 02:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hermaphrodites in Ancient/Modern Culture

I think this would be a great edition to the article. I know the Hermaphrodites were important in the religious beliefs of the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians and that since ancient time in India there has been a social class made up of Hermaphrodites, castrated men, and women who would be identified as Transgender in the West. They have a specific name which I have forgotten, but they're believed to have special powers and must live as social outcasts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.63.202.179 (talk) 05:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

In India they are called 'Hijra (South Asia)'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Reclining Hermaphrodite

Is there any verification that The Reclining Hermaphrodite sculpture is a Hermaphrodite or is it just a man with Gynecomastia and long hair? I fail to believe Gynecomastia is a form of being Hermaphrodite.71.113.106.92

[edit] Chromosomes

Why is there nothing about X & Y chromosomes at all in this article? Surely someone has published some research on the sex chromosomes of hermaphrodites?82.6.114.172 14:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organizing w Human hermaphrodites

I consolidated the two separate human sections into one and placed as the first section, thinking that most readers are humans and will want to know about human hermaphrodites more than animals! Expecting someone to say "humans are animals too!" yes we are biologically but not in other senses. If you still object, please change the section title to "Non-human animals". --Ephilei 01:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An odd anon contribution

72.155.69.151 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) contributed this section, which seems earnest but also pretty fatally flawed in clarity and structure.

"Those who are intersexed mean they do not contain the reproductive powers of either sex, their DNA is a true anomaly meaning that somewhere in the time of fetal growth they were normally conceived but a sex incriptase mutation produced partial or full features of both sexes, but are infertile. They would however without this DNA mutation would identify with what they appear as or where and how they urinate."

Discuss! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

this is such an OBSCURE topic, as well as perverse Olliekamm (talk) 14:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)