Talk:Hen Harrier

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Birds Portal Hen Harrier is part of WikiProject Birds, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative and easy-to-use ornithological resource. If you would like to participate, visit the project page. Please do not substitute this template.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject Birds To-do: edit Major taxonomic overhaul (see here) Create Galloanserae

In the UK, the Hen Harrier is subjected to intense organised illegal persecution by gamekeepers and their employers on shooting estates, particularly those managed for Red Grouse shooting.

I disagree with the above: the are not subject to "intense" persecution, as despite all reports, few Hen Harriers are shot in the UK. Also, i doubt that people formally organise to go out to shoot harriers. I beleive that this article is becoming biased and does not give a voice for the gamekeeping point of view. Greenfinch100 17:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

It's true, however much you might want not to believe it. I've reworded slightly and added two more references, one from a peer-reviewed scientific journal, another from the police, which I'm sure you'll accept are both independent unbiased sources. - MPF 18:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I accept the references, i just feel that stereotyping gamekeepers to make them look like indiscriminate raptor haters is unacceptable due to the number of keepers who are helping organisations such as the RSPB in conserving these birds, and the fact that without them the countryside would not have the habitats it has today Greenfinch100 18:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the wording about hen harrier persecution. Surely it would be better to say they are in conflict with the interests of some gamekeepers and therefore persecution is a pressure on their conservation status in the UK. At the moment, the entry is certainly biased and slightly hysterical.

Also, the police have closed the case on the harriers brought down by the royal artillery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.35.199 (talk • contribs) 2007 November 18

Agreed, I will the change the article to a more neutral view now. Greenfinch100 (talk) 16:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 5 December 2007 edits

MPF, please do not un-do my edits where i am trying to create an neutral article. I respect your views but there is no need to totally incriminate the opposing side of the argument. Greenfinch100 (talk) 21:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, your edits were removing factual information. Killing or disturbing Hen Harriers in Britain is a crime under British law, punishable by a period of up to 6 months in jail; to remove the word 'criminal' is wrong. And it is intense and determined; at a raptor conference I attended, the professional conclusion of a scientist studying the topic was that about 90% of grouse moor owners were involved in illegal raptor killing. Note that this is not someone working for a pressure group but an independent observer. As soon as I find publication information for this data, I plan to add it. And it is organised; Hen Harriers are being deliberately shot by trespassing groups of persons who are not in the employ of the local landowner, on land that is not used for grouse shooting, including on RSPB reserves, and including, widely, at known Hen Harrier winter roosts. Obviously, police are investigating such matters (Operation Artemis http://www.nwcu.police.uk/pages/ourpriorities/henharrier.asp , ongoing, and the largest single investigation of wildlife crime ever made in Britain), but obtaining convictions is (as I'm sure you are well aware) almost impossible. By the way, I should point out that this activity is more or less unique to grouse moor owners; lowland shooting estates have a vastly better reputation in respect of raptor conservation, with numerous excellent examples. - MPF (talk) 10:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The RSPB reference supports the content that gamekeepers are involved and describes intense human interference.[1] The NWCU reference uses the words "determined criminality.[2] Does a reliable source exist for the contrary assertion (above) that "few Hen Harriers are shot in the UK"? Walter Siegmund (talk) 11:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)