Talk:Hell/Archive 1

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There is someone who asked me, "Ultimately, is there such a thing as the hells or not?" I'll tell you, right when people are alive, they are in the hells. You just look: Most people are full of afflictions, fighting and disputing. There is no rest from it. There is no stopping to it. Isn't this just being in the hells? What kind of meaning does this sort of human life have? What's more, there are floods, tornadoes, wars and human calamities which also are hells within the human realm. And again, consider the terrible diseases which tie up the body so that one suffers so much that one can't describe it. When cancer develops, one may hurt so much that he does not even wish to live anymore. Is this not just the hells?

But people still don't see through it and they still can't put it down. They still can't let go. They remain greedily attached and what's more they entertain no thoughts of loving-kindness or compassion. When they see a benefit for themselves they forget about any principle, even going to the point of committing arson and engaging in theft. But at the very end, they still remain on the wheel [of birth-and-death] where they continue to turn about without any prospect of a time when it will come to a halt.

[Hell] A word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew she´ohl´ and the Greek hai´des. In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from she´ohl´ 31 times and from hai´des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since she´ohl´ is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the Douay Version she´ohl´ is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once.
In 1885, with the publication of the complete English Revised Version, the original word she´ohl´ was in many places transliterated into the English text of the Hebrew Scriptures, though, in most occurrences, “grave” and “pit” were used, and “hell” is found some 14 times. This was a point on which the American committee disagreed with the British revisers, and so, when producing the American Standard Version (1901) they transliterated she´ohl´ in all 65 of its appearances. Both versions transliterated hai´des in the Christian Greek Scriptures in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Ge´en·na (English, “Gehenna”) is rendered “hell” throughout, as is true of many other modern translations.
Concerning this use of “hell” to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”
Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”
It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “from . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.
The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.
“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.” Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance - November 10, 2005

The last section on the "urban legend" seems like a pretty ridiculous digression for an encyclopedia article. I'm going to remove it if there are no objections. Vonspringer 03:10, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

OK this is probably too big a topic to cover on one page. Almost every religion has a version of Hell, some Christian sects even believe in up to 3 hells, one where fallen angels are locked up until the final judgement, one where unsaved souls are kept after death until the final judgement, and one where all of the above are cast into at the final judgement(also called the lake of fire). Also some don't believe in eternal torment in hell, they believe that after some amount of suffering the damned simply 'cease to be', as if they had never existed. The Muslims have a Hell, the Mormons have a kind of hell, the old Norse religion had a hell too. There is just too much, I don't know where to start! --MemoryHole.com

I suggest with an outline of what you know, to be filled in with research!  :-) --LMS

Ooooh - can we have a list of "Celebrities in Hell"? --MichaelTinkler

How about a list of "Celebrities We Wish were in Hell?" -- Stephen Gilbert

That's how Dante operated! See Boniface VIII. --MichaelTinkler

I'd like to move the main article on hell to the top, and the Hell, Norway link back to the bottom. Any objections? Atorpen 03:59 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

The Hell Norway link is two lines, and if you were looking for it, if it was at the bottom you would never scroll down there. What's wrong with a disambiguation at the top? It's short enough. Rick Boatright 04:01 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)
Okay, as you say. I was only thinking that it does slightly interrupt the flow of the article, and I would assume (naughty, naughty) most English speakers would be looking for the more common usage. It wasn't the length I was worried about. I've noticed that many articles use disambig at bottom, and thought this was an appropriate place to do the same. Since you object, and seem more concerned and knowledgable about it than I am, I bow to your wishes. Have a nice day :) Atorpen 04:07 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

the few sentences about "japanese and chinese hells" appear to be somehow biased; at least I ´ve read it like that (from Germany)

Whenever I read in Wikipedia according to many religious beliefs... oh well. Does anyone know that Hell comes into Christianity from Persia? Wetman 08:59, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Oh yeah! I do! From this religion that I can't remember the name of - but it does.

From the introductory paragraphs (paras 4&7 currently):

"The Judeo-Christian term hell comes from the Hebrew word "Gehinnom", which technically means landfill"

This seems partially at odds with, or at least needlessly repeated by, a later paragraph:

"The New Testament...uses the word 'Gehenna', from the valley of Ge-Hinnom, a valley near Jerusalem in which in ancient times garbage was burned."

I'm guessing that both are accurate and the word for landfill comes from the valley's name (or the reverse), but it's a mite confusing as stands.

Oh, and there are two definitely-conflicting derivations for the word "hell" itself: the Anglo-Saxon/Norse Hel connection (first paragraph) and the Gehinnom connection I quoted above. If it's not known which is correct, at the very least there should be some recognition along the lines of "one theory says X, but another says Y".

Looks like two or more authors' work, just needing better collation. --Suitov 16:16, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"This image of Hell is the factual biblical view. However, many children's stories and cartoons portray Hell as being a place ruled by the devil where the lesser demons torment the souls of the dead. This view is rejected by the Christian Church and has no basis in the Bible."

Definately not neutral, quite laughable in fact, and I'm going to remove it if nobody objects. Or even if they do :P -- User:DavidMcCabe

Contents

The words "hELLO" and "hELL"

On a calculator, you can type a number in it and turn it upside down. If you type 0.7734, you will get good manners, "hELLO". However, you will get bad manners if you drop off the 0. Interestingly, the words are not at all realted.

Italic textImportant note: If you don't think this message is appropriate for this editing talk, please move it to whatever talk you think is a better place to put it.

Maybe someone ought to write an article on words you can make on a calculator.--RLent 22:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

List of works set in hell

Is there a list somewhere on Wikipedia of works (books/songs/etc) set in hell? →Raul654 07:10, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

  • Probably not. Such a list would almost certainly include Shaw's Don Juan in Hell, and none of the pages that link to that (as-yet-unwritten) article are lists. -- Nunh-huh 07:13, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)~
    • Off the top of my head - there's Paradise Lost and G. David Shine in Hell (funniest play ever!). →Raul654 07:28, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)
      • Well, Paradise Lost is only a little bit in Hell<G>. Similarly the oper "Don Giovanni": no actual scenes in Hell, just a lick of fire and brimstone. "Inferno" and "Memnoch the Devil" pop to mind. As well as the most hilarious parts of "South Park".... - Nunh-huh 07:34, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
        • And the Simpsons, and Futurama, for that matter. →Raul654 07:37, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)
          • Ah! Robot Hell!<G> --Nunh-huh 07:42, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
            • If I'm not mistaken, I think "Don Juan in Hell" is actually part of Man and Superman by Shaw. -- Decumanus 07:45, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
                  • 3rd Act, but no less in hell for all that<G>-- Nunh-huh 10:01, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)~
    • Also Aeneid includes the Roman underworld, which is worth mentioning since Dante based a lot of Inferno on that account. --Chinasaur 00:14, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Organizing Afterlife Articles

I propose Afterlife to be the organizational hub of the group of articles dealing with a life beyond this world. The other contenders for a hub article would be underworld and eschatology, but I don't think either of those terms works as well as Afterlife. Any other thougths about improving the organization of the otherworld articles? Tom (hawstom) 14:37, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

cold hell

weren't some versions or areas of hell frozen instead of hot? dante's inferno, i think. - Omegatron 19:37, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

I believe the entire 9th (lowest, deepest, reserved for traitors) circle of Hell is frozen in Inferno. At least there is definitely the frozen lake of the river cocytus. --Chinasaur 22:22, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hell/Hellas - Judeo-Christian Mythology

Hell as a concept might have come from the Greco-Roman occupation of Judea-Israel. The Greeks and thenm the Romans forced their beliefs on the Hebrews and desicrated the Hebrew places of worhip. The Assyrians and Babylonians allowed them to practice their own ways while even in captivity. And as par for the historical ourse they were later absorbed by the larger and more powerfull culture. I think that Hellas, the Greek word for themselves, was used to scare little children in the same ways that the bogeyman is used today. The Hebrews as a zenophobic people would have resisted the introduction of foreign, to them, beliefs. Especially any that coutravened any of their existing beliefs. This is my theory and I'm sticking with it.--Tomtom 15:57, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hellas means "the land of the Hellenes", the people we English speakers call the Greeks. Hellen (note the double letters) is the mythological ancestor of the Hellenes. Too Old 21:53, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Manga?

Are manga really that relevent to a look at the actual mythological beliefs in hell? I'm under the impression that manga are fairly recent...

They are if you're putting them in the Hell in entertainment category... Ø 20:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The Rings of Hell

Why aren't the rings or layers of Hell mentioned in this article? There doesn't seem to be an article about them, and they aren't mentioned anywhere here. --Berserk798 16:38, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They're described in the article about Dante's Inferno. -Tverbeek 20:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but shouldn't they be included or at least linked to this article? --Berserk798 22:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This sounds like a troll: Furthermore, the very concept of Hell in the Christian religion completly nullifies the concept of a just and moral God, as a truly just or moral being would not torture another being for the victimless crime of not worshipping him. It's in the More on the history and description of Hell in Christianity section. --68.63.228.74 05:42, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds pretty biased to me. I took the liberty of removing it.
17:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Ø

More Input on other religions Hells/(-)Afterlife

I was curious, and made a mention already in the article about it-- though if it is to early ill delete it, that alot of the hells in other religions seems to be very loose and empty, much attention has been given to a christian sense of of hell, which i can understand since the main readers will more likely than not be more familiar with it. though in that case though, perhaps the other hells could be elongated and more thouroughly researched, perhaps from their respective literature and background thoughts. the one thing i put in, perhaps too hastily, is that hell in Islam is propagated into several rings similar to the Inferno depending on the amount of evil done, i will research this more and place more info with time regarding what must be done to warrant what in those rings, though i will be brief and thourough with it, and then perhaps others could look up others regarding other types of hells, or even it as a state of mind found within some philosophies.

Psychological Hell

I think there's something worth saying with regards to how people create their own personal hell, or that hell is all in the mind. More specifically, that when people imagine a possible future or situation which they desire, but reality comes into conflict with that vision, but then said person refuses to give up on their imagining -- preferring fantasy to reality -- that can be said to become someone's personal hell. I believe this parallels the Christian take on "the absence of God", rather the absence of reality in which to ground yourself, instead trapped in the psychosis of your obsession.

Separation in the first definition

The word mythological can seem to qualify both place and state. This is contradicted by the other statements which follow where a clear distinction is made. I separated the two. Walter Ching 14:08, 31 July 2005 (UTC)