Talk:Heliograph

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Contents 1 Why 1990s? 2 Recording sunshine 3 Earlier uses 4 Not only morse code 5 Merge

[edit] Why 1990s?

Ummm. Why 1990s? From Afghanistan: 'the Soviet Union intervened on 24 December 1979. Faced with mounting international pressure and losses of approximately 15,000 Soviet soldiers as a result of mujahideen opposition trained by the United States, Pakistan, and other foreign governments, the Soviets withdrew ten years later in 1989. For more details see Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.' I will correct the entry to 1980s. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:37, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Recording sunshine

I was researching sunshine recorders and found that http://amsglossary.allenpress.com/glossary/search?id=heliograph1 says a heliograph and blueprint paper can be used to record sun. Anybody got any idea how this works?

sorry forgot to sign it CambridgeBayWeather 18:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Much too late, but you wanted sunshine recorders. -- Securiger 23:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Earlier uses

According to The Crusades: Islamic Perspectives, heliograph may have been in use during the Crusades (p. 469). The Jade Knight 06:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not only morse code

I recall something like a heliograph being used for transmittins sound (i.e. speech) as well. Then it work with the sound inducing ocilations in a thin reflective plate. I don't think it ever made more than a prototype, but it may be interesting to note. // Liftarn 06:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

You are probably thinking of the Alexander Graham Bell's photophone (1880) Macchess (talk) 06:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I propose that this page be merged into Heliotrope (instrument). As stated in Heliography, both seem to be the same instrument; but "heliograph" is not the most convenient name for this instrument. We can deduce from the greek root -graphy, which originally meant "to write", and therefore is more adequate for the photography usage referred in Heliography (or at best, to refer to sunshine recorders). Heliotrope, instead, besides being the original name of the instrument, has the advantage that it's root comes from comes from the Greek τροπή (tropē), "a turn, a change", as we can read in Trope (linguistics). This makes more sense as the name of the instrument. Quoting Heliotrope (instrument), "It is a fitting name for an instrument which can be turned to reflect the sun toward a given point."

Note that the fact that the two words are used to refer to instruments for slightly different purposes doesn't mean they are the same instrument being given different uses. For all this, I am willing to merge both articles under the name I consider more appropriate, Heliotrope. But evidently I'd first like to hear the oppinion of the community on this. If noone opposes in a while, I'll perform the merge. --Waldir ^talk 13:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

"Heliograph" should not be merged into Heliotrope (instrument) (nor Heliostat, for that matter). "Heliotrope" is not the dominant term for this sort of instrument - "Heliograph" is. To support my assertion: in the dictionary I use as my guide to common usage (Merriam-Webster's 11th Ed. Collegiate dictionary(2003)), none of the three definitions provided for "Heliotrope" describe any instrument, and the entry for "Heliograph" has one and only one definition: "an apparatus for telegraphing by means of the sun's rays flashed from a mirror". Presumably "Heliograph" won partly because of the felicitous functional resemblance to the telegraph (not photograph), and partly because the term "heliotrope" was appropriated to describe sunflowers when tropism became popular in botany ("heliotropes" are plants that turn to face the sun). In the heyday of the heliograph, the telegraph was the primary means of light-speed long distance communication (and similarly used Morse Code)), so the heliograph:telegraph relationship would have been compelling. The dominance of "heliograph" to describe these instruments is also my personal experience, both in the written literature and on the web. Note the many web sites cited in the article, which have extensive photographs, literature, and other material under the term "heliograph". For an example from popular literature, see Kipling's <http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_codeofmorals.htm>. It is true that "heliotrope" is occasionally used to describe sun-signalling instruments, but readers who run across a description of a sun-signalling instrument and look to Wikipedia for more are far, far more likely to be searching for "heliograph". Macchess (talk) 22:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't support a merger and I agree with the comments of Macchess. I have dealt extensively with early communications and have only known these instruments under the name "heliograph". If fact, until reading this proposal for merger I had never heard the name "heliotrope" so I don't imagine many people would search for these devices under that name. J Costello (talk) 01:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough - you've convinced me :) Should I invert the merge tags, then? That is, suggest heliotrope (instrument) to be merged into this article? --Waldir ^talk 11:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I propose that the merge tags simply be removed. I think each instrument merits its own article. The heliograph is a communications instrument, and the heliotrope a surveying instrument, and while the heliotrope inspired the heliograph, the two then coexisted for over a century thereafter. The two articles cross-reference each other fairly appropriately now ( per the references I found and cited, Mance, the inventor of the British heliograph, was inspired by the surveying heliotropes he encountered in the survey of India). The heliotrope has a long and fruitful history. For example, it seems that the US army military standard: ARMY MIL-H-20194E: HELIOTROPE, SURVEYING, BOX-TYPE, WITH CASE, was not withdrawn until 1995. <http://aero-defense.ihs.com/document/abstract/XQMZDAAAAAAAAAAA>. There's a bit more recent detail here:<http://www.tpub.com/content/logistics/66/75/3/00-240-1892.htm>. For a nice history of the heliotrope, see: <http://www.amerisurv.com/PDF/TheAmericanSurveyor_BediniHeliotropes_November2004.pdf>. By the way, as a result of my investigations, I've added quite a few references and other tidbits to the Heliograph article. Macchess (talk) 04:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You have done an impressive job! I'll remove the merge tags then. --Waldir ^talk 12:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)