Talk:Hayley Williams
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[edit] Proposed merger to Paramore page
As I said in the edit summary, I don't see any reason to have a separate page for this person. She has no notability outside of the band, as far as I can tell, and the band's page has all of this information already. Does she have a solo career? Maybe this should just be a redirect? Zimbardo Cookie Experiment 18:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- As the article stands she doesn't meet the requirements for her own arrticle. I'd vote for a redirect for now.--TM 17:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please read WP:BIO. She clearly fits the standards: there have been multiple independent sources that have talked specifically about her. She's done stuff without the rest of the band, as the article stated. Also, there's information in this article that isn't in the main article. This isn't a matter of opinion, but the following of a guideline. Yes, it needs work. I just started a stub, as she has the notability (according to the guideline) for one. Please add on if you think it may need some work, or possibly add some tags. I am going to follow the guidelines of Wikipedia here, and revert back to the article. If you disagree with the notability guidelines, please discuss on that page. If you have any ideas for changes to better this article, discuss it here. Thanks, нмŵוτнτ 23:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Addressing hmwith, Hayley has done about 5 guest vocals on songs with other bands if that counts as her own work. Also, there is absolutely no information about her in this article that isn't in the band article. Check it once more. This article is essentially everything about Hayley in the Paramore article, pasted into here - and references as well (save for two: one that is also mentioned on the Paramore article and could have used that source and the other from their official website). Those are the only two sources that purely talk about Hayley. So, there aren't multiple independent sources talking about her. I won't redirect it now, but I think there should be some discussion here. -Lindsey8417 (talk) 00:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think it should remain redirected until notability is proven as was the consensus. As you said i can't see any reason to split the paramore article and merely repeat what happily resides there. --neonwhite user page talk 05:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are a lot of more sources. I didn't get around to adding them, because I didn't think that anyone would debate it. I was simply being WP:BOLD. Plus, many of these things are mentioned in the article. They're especially about her, however, and deserve mention here. Most should be mentioned here rather than there, actually, and many of those sources are about her individually. нмŵוτнτ 00:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- The test is whether she would be known or notable if she wasnt a member of the band and if there is sufficient encyclopedic information not related to the band that cannot be contained in the paramore article and i think in this case the obvious answer is a definite no, at the current time she has done little or nothing that isn't related to the band and to keep wikipedia easy to use, we can assume that users will be looking for info on her in relation to the band as so far that is all that exists. There is no point in simply repeating stuff that already exists in the encyclopedia. There just aren't any sources about her individually that aren't about her as a member of the band. Therefore she does not fit the basic critera on {{WP:BIO]] --neonwhite user page talk 05:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- That could be said for any member of any band on Wikipedia, basically. Would Brian Littrell be famous without the Backstreet Boys, for example? Haha, she could actually have an article for being a lyricist per WP:MUSIC: "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition". нмŵוτнτ 17:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Other pages aren't relevant to this case. There are literally hundreds of pages that aren't up to standard, we don't judge cases by their standards but my the one's set out by policy. Brian Littrell is a solo artist who has released albums under his own name and one several awards, making him notable. That criteria is for composers and lyricists not really for members of bands or singers. It is designed to allow article by prolific song writers and composers. It is simply common sense that a band member that has done little else but be in a band should be included within the bands article. There is little achieved by splitting up the article and repeating the same text.--neonwhite user page talk 18:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the article needs work. No argument there. It needs to be expanded. What's there now was simply put in place to make a start for the article. My proposal is that some of the information that has nothing to do with the band should be in this article and not in the band article. It makes more sense that way. Also, I just gave Brian as an example of precedent here. As a band becomes more and more notable, the members of the band deserve their own articles. This isn't a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but, rather, showing guidelines in action. There have been multiple sources talking just about her (try a WP:GOOGLE search). She's won honors and "awards" just being her. This has nothing to do with personal issue with me being a big fan, as that's not the case at all, actually. The situation is that we all want a consistent encyclopedia. Therefore, we should abide by the guidelines wherever possible and reasonable. нмŵוτнτ 18:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- What info is there that has nothing to do with the band? i can find no evidence of her having done anything else or articles that talk about her not as a member as paramore (they wouldnt have much to say as paramore appears to be all she has done). This is why she fails to have notability on her own and why it's sensible to have the articles merged. I highly doubt she will be looked up in an encyclopedia for any other reason than being in this band. --neonwhite user page talk 04:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Everything in the article is specifically about her. And, well, yeah, of course she first made a name for herself as being a member of this band. That's how it goes, but it doesn't mean she's not notable. Whether or not the band itself made her famous, she's still famous. WP:BIO doesn't say it doesn't matter if one is notable for this reason or that reason, it's the fact that he or she is notable. Period. нмŵוτнτ 09:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- There's nothing about her individual notabilty in the article and nothing that can't go in the paramore article. The only notability she currently has is as a member of this band, there is no evidence of anything beyond that. No-one has found any articles that are not related to her involvement in the band. Interviews with band members aren't really sources for individual notability. The fact remains that alone, she barely quality under WP:MUSIC or WP:BIO and therefore it is nonsensical to have a seperate article that doesn't actually add anything to or improve the encyclopedia in any way. --neonwhite user page talk 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Everything in the article is specifically about her. And, well, yeah, of course she first made a name for herself as being a member of this band. That's how it goes, but it doesn't mean she's not notable. Whether or not the band itself made her famous, she's still famous. WP:BIO doesn't say it doesn't matter if one is notable for this reason or that reason, it's the fact that he or she is notable. Period. нмŵוτнτ 09:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- What info is there that has nothing to do with the band? i can find no evidence of her having done anything else or articles that talk about her not as a member as paramore (they wouldnt have much to say as paramore appears to be all she has done). This is why she fails to have notability on her own and why it's sensible to have the articles merged. I highly doubt she will be looked up in an encyclopedia for any other reason than being in this band. --neonwhite user page talk 04:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the article needs work. No argument there. It needs to be expanded. What's there now was simply put in place to make a start for the article. My proposal is that some of the information that has nothing to do with the band should be in this article and not in the band article. It makes more sense that way. Also, I just gave Brian as an example of precedent here. As a band becomes more and more notable, the members of the band deserve their own articles. This isn't a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but, rather, showing guidelines in action. There have been multiple sources talking just about her (try a WP:GOOGLE search). She's won honors and "awards" just being her. This has nothing to do with personal issue with me being a big fan, as that's not the case at all, actually. The situation is that we all want a consistent encyclopedia. Therefore, we should abide by the guidelines wherever possible and reasonable. нмŵוτнτ 18:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Other pages aren't relevant to this case. There are literally hundreds of pages that aren't up to standard, we don't judge cases by their standards but my the one's set out by policy. Brian Littrell is a solo artist who has released albums under his own name and one several awards, making him notable. That criteria is for composers and lyricists not really for members of bands or singers. It is designed to allow article by prolific song writers and composers. It is simply common sense that a band member that has done little else but be in a band should be included within the bands article. There is little achieved by splitting up the article and repeating the same text.--neonwhite user page talk 18:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- That could be said for any member of any band on Wikipedia, basically. Would Brian Littrell be famous without the Backstreet Boys, for example? Haha, she could actually have an article for being a lyricist per WP:MUSIC: "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition". нмŵוτнτ 17:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- The test is whether she would be known or notable if she wasnt a member of the band and if there is sufficient encyclopedic information not related to the band that cannot be contained in the paramore article and i think in this case the obvious answer is a definite no, at the current time she has done little or nothing that isn't related to the band and to keep wikipedia easy to use, we can assume that users will be looking for info on her in relation to the band as so far that is all that exists. There is no point in simply repeating stuff that already exists in the encyclopedia. There just aren't any sources about her individually that aren't about her as a member of the band. Therefore she does not fit the basic critera on {{WP:BIO]] --neonwhite user page talk 05:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are a lot of more sources. I didn't get around to adding them, because I didn't think that anyone would debate it. I was simply being WP:BOLD. Plus, many of these things are mentioned in the article. They're especially about her, however, and deserve mention here. Most should be mentioned here rather than there, actually, and many of those sources are about her individually. нмŵוτнτ 00:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please read WP:BIO. She clearly fits the standards: there have been multiple independent sources that have talked specifically about her. She's done stuff without the rest of the band, as the article stated. Also, there's information in this article that isn't in the main article. This isn't a matter of opinion, but the following of a guideline. Yes, it needs work. I just started a stub, as she has the notability (according to the guideline) for one. Please add on if you think it may need some work, or possibly add some tags. I am going to follow the guidelines of Wikipedia here, and revert back to the article. If you disagree with the notability guidelines, please discuss on that page. If you have any ideas for changes to better this article, discuss it here. Thanks, нмŵוτнτ 23:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- There was no consensus to change the article to a redirect. It's a 2-person discussion, with one person feeling one way, and another feeling a different way. We both appear to be interpreting the policy completely differently. I mean, you said that she "barely qualifies" (assume that's what you meant) for an article... You said right there that she deserves an article (even if she barely does). So why did you delete the content? Please discuss further without making changes. Also, if you want to merge to two articles, please add all of this information into the other article in the future, although, in this case, much of it is not relevant to the band at all (hence the making of this article). нмŵוτнτ 21:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- The consenus is on the paramore talk page. There simply is no information in this article that cannot be included or is currently in the main article. We don't split pages just for the sake of making a pointless new page that contains nothing original. It is a generla guideline that band member do not have individual notability for being the member of a notable group unless they have notability outside of the group. So far i cannot find any evidence of this person having done anything other than being in this band, this makes her a non-notable person in the context of this encyclopedia. It would help if you could outline here any information that is not trivia and is not related to the band and therefore cannot be included in the main article. --neonwhite user page talk 18:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- She does have notability outside the group, per WP:BIO. Could you please direct me to the page the says the guideline you paraphrased, anyways? нмŵוτнτ 19:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I just checked out the talk page. What? There is no consensus whatsoever. You and one other person held your opinion, and two others held another opinion. It was 50/50. Actually, plus me, now, it makes consensus lean towards her having an article, if anything. The other tiny bit of information in the archives (from before they were hardly notable) is outdated and further obsolete. New consensus must be reached, which is what I'm trying to do, but you are hindering the development of it (the consensus). Please keep an open mind, and don't refuse any changes with which you, personally, do not agree. нмŵוτнτ 19:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no evidence of any notablility outside the group whatsoever. Two experienced editors made valid points based on policy and one other person made an point not based on an policy, that was the consensus. Wikipedia is not a democracy, consensus is based on making points based on policy. You have failed to show any evidence to back up your claims of notability. Therefore they are being dismissed as personal opinion. You cannot make a personal decision based on your POV that a person is notable, you must provide evidence that asserts that notability. Policy, speficially WP:MUSIC which is the accepted guide for musicians, rather WP:BIO says that band members who's only notability is in being member of a notable band do not usually need or warrent seperate articles unless they have a life outside the band. in this case i cannot see one. Feel free to prove me wrong. --neonwhite user page talk 20:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't let my opinion bias articles or decisions (I don't even listen to this band). I first realized who she was through the Hayley page, and I looked into her. I simply am a neutral editor, previously uninvolved with edits concerning this band, trying to create a neutral, consistent encyclopedia. I'm removing this page from my watchlist. Good day, нмŵוτнτ 00:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no evidence of any notablility outside the group whatsoever. Two experienced editors made valid points based on policy and one other person made an point not based on an policy, that was the consensus. Wikipedia is not a democracy, consensus is based on making points based on policy. You have failed to show any evidence to back up your claims of notability. Therefore they are being dismissed as personal opinion. You cannot make a personal decision based on your POV that a person is notable, you must provide evidence that asserts that notability. Policy, speficially WP:MUSIC which is the accepted guide for musicians, rather WP:BIO says that band members who's only notability is in being member of a notable band do not usually need or warrent seperate articles unless they have a life outside the band. in this case i cannot see one. Feel free to prove me wrong. --neonwhite user page talk 20:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I just checked out the talk page. What? There is no consensus whatsoever. You and one other person held your opinion, and two others held another opinion. It was 50/50. Actually, plus me, now, it makes consensus lean towards her having an article, if anything. The other tiny bit of information in the archives (from before they were hardly notable) is outdated and further obsolete. New consensus must be reached, which is what I'm trying to do, but you are hindering the development of it (the consensus). Please keep an open mind, and don't refuse any changes with which you, personally, do not agree. нмŵוτнτ 19:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- She does have notability outside the group, per WP:BIO. Could you please direct me to the page the says the guideline you paraphrased, anyways? нмŵוτнτ 19:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Lacy Mosely dosen't have any notability outside of Flyleaf and she still has her own page.I think you should make the page about her life growing up, like Lacy's is. Mr. Greenchat 15:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- The consenus is on the paramore talk page. There simply is no information in this article that cannot be included or is currently in the main article. We don't split pages just for the sake of making a pointless new page that contains nothing original. It is a generla guideline that band member do not have individual notability for being the member of a notable group unless they have notability outside of the group. So far i cannot find any evidence of this person having done anything other than being in this band, this makes her a non-notable person in the context of this encyclopedia. It would help if you could outline here any information that is not trivia and is not related to the band and therefore cannot be included in the main article. --neonwhite user page talk 18:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Intent to write article
I as of now am researching this , have found sources for notability, and intend to create this page with when I finish my research. Please direct discussion to my talk page. Thanks! Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 19:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- User:Chrislk02/sandbox is a link to where I am working on this article. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 19:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- she stills has no notability outside of the band and has done nothing that isnt involved in the band so according to policy she doesnt warrant a seperate article, if you have sourced info add it to Paramore. --neonwhite user page talk 02:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Im sorry, if i have enough information to meet requirements at WP:NOTE and WP:BIO,(which i intent to show that I do) i am going to write the article. If you object after i create it, you can take it to WP:AFD. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 03:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- You have zero sources that demostrate any notability outside of the band. Members of bands do not inherit notability from the band. see WP:MUSIC for more accurate info about notability in music. You have to demonstrate that they have done other unrelated acts that are of note. It doesn't need to go to afd it will just be reverted to the redirect as it has been done countless times before. Until she has individual notability then band related info can easily be included in the Paramore article as most of it already is. --neonwhite user page talk 18:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- What I am saying is that she has received individual coverage (in the form of interviews) from reliable sources (rolling stones). These are interviews of with her (not her and the rest of the band). I am fairly sure she meets notability requirements, IF this is an issue, I will gladly ask for 3rd opinions from peoiple unrelated to this topic to determine a new consensus. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 20:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- The interviews are concerning paramore and her part in the group (Rolling Stone introduces her as "Paramore's Hayley Williams"), therefore they aren't individual or independent of the group and her notability is due to the group not to individual acts of note. i.e. she is inheriting it from the paramore subject. So unless the info is too large to be contained there, there's no reason for a split. The previous consensus is not that old and as nothing much has changed since (she is still only a member of a notable group), i see no reason why the consensus would change to one that goes against guidelines. --neonwhite user page talk 19:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- What I am saying is that she has received individual coverage (in the form of interviews) from reliable sources (rolling stones). These are interviews of with her (not her and the rest of the band). I am fairly sure she meets notability requirements, IF this is an issue, I will gladly ask for 3rd opinions from peoiple unrelated to this topic to determine a new consensus. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 20:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- You have zero sources that demostrate any notability outside of the band. Members of bands do not inherit notability from the band. see WP:MUSIC for more accurate info about notability in music. You have to demonstrate that they have done other unrelated acts that are of note. It doesn't need to go to afd it will just be reverted to the redirect as it has been done countless times before. Until she has individual notability then band related info can easily be included in the Paramore article as most of it already is. --neonwhite user page talk 18:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Im sorry, if i have enough information to meet requirements at WP:NOTE and WP:BIO,(which i intent to show that I do) i am going to write the article. If you object after i create it, you can take it to WP:AFD. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 03:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- she stills has no notability outside of the band and has done nothing that isnt involved in the band so according to policy she doesnt warrant a seperate article, if you have sourced info add it to Paramore. --neonwhite user page talk 02:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Deletion of Hayley Williams
Before you deltete the article shouldn't yoguys disscuss it first?Edit warring isn't allowed and it's going to get you both blocked. Mr. GreenHit Me UpUserboxes 17:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
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- It's not being deleted it was merged according to guidelines some time ago on the basis of overlap as the page is largely copied from the main Paramore article (like the entire "Paramore" section is the history of the band taken from the main article, it's not about her at all) and the info being attributed to this individual is actually about the band and not her as an individual. As WP:MUSIC says Members of notable bands are not given individual articles unless they have demonstrated notability for activity independent of the band.. No member of this band has. Notability is not inherited, so a subject doesnt inherit notability from being a member of a notable group. --neonwhite user page talk 17:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Mark Arm, Steve Turner, Gary Lee Conner and Van Conner are not notable and have their own pages. --Freedom (song) (talk) 17:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
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- The are many poor and non-notable articles on wikipedia, especially about band members, they are often largely unsourced, full of trivia and written by Wikipedia:Fancruft:fans. We can't use other stuff exists as a reason for a subject to have an article. However in this case it appears Mark Arm has solo projects outside of his band and played with other bands and has an acting career which establishes his notability. The other three are less clear but Van Conner seems to have been involved with enough notable side projects and other bands to establish his notability. Regardless three of those articles are stubs and would probably be better merged to a main article. We need to remember that merging does not remove or change information it simply collects related info in a central place were it is easier to access and in this case removes the duplication of info and also that wikipedia isn't a directory of musicians. It is simply a matter of structure, it shouldn't not be seen as a comment on or an insult to the subject. --neonwhite user page talk 18:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- As much as I don't want to I'm afraid I have to agree with Neon White in this case.Wikipedia has its rules and in order for wikipedia to be effective we must follow them.Perhaps when Hayley Williams does something for another band or does something that gets her notable we can make this page.Until then we can't do anything. Happy Editing Mr. GreenHit Me UpUserboxes 16:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- The are many poor and non-notable articles on wikipedia, especially about band members, they are often largely unsourced, full of trivia and written by Wikipedia:Fancruft:fans. We can't use other stuff exists as a reason for a subject to have an article. However in this case it appears Mark Arm has solo projects outside of his band and played with other bands and has an acting career which establishes his notability. The other three are less clear but Van Conner seems to have been involved with enough notable side projects and other bands to establish his notability. Regardless three of those articles are stubs and would probably be better merged to a main article. We need to remember that merging does not remove or change information it simply collects related info in a central place were it is easier to access and in this case removes the duplication of info and also that wikipedia isn't a directory of musicians. It is simply a matter of structure, it shouldn't not be seen as a comment on or an insult to the subject. --neonwhite user page talk 18:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
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