Talk:Hattie Jacques
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[edit] Birth Year
Has anyone any sorces that can confirm 1922 as her birth year? I've just had to change it back from 1924 to 1922 as this is now the year usually given, but it would be nice to have a definite source. Crisso 17:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. I'm going to try and tidy-up this article over the weekend, they're aren't any sources at all! And I'll try and find a definate source for birth year.--UpDown 18:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I was able to confirm 1922 from a primary source - her birth register index entry at the GRO. Ian Cairns 08:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Surname
With regards to her surname all sources bar the GRO Index say Jacques. The GRO Index is not always right (from my own research I know that!), and the missing "c" could simply be a spelling error from certificate to index. I think we need more sources for this name change before we say for certain she was born Jaques, because at the moment we are saying one source appears to be above all others. Thus, I have removed the Jaques reference. Please only put it back in again we you have more refs than just the not-always reliable Jaques. Can anyone get hold of her birth certificate, and if she was Jaques did she legally change it or just adopt another name? I find it hard to believe you'd bother changing your name from "Jaques" to "Jacques". --UpDown 07:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Please quote your primary sources rather than just "All sources ... say..". I have given a primary source and not a secondary source, e.g. a biography. Are 'all' your sources primary or secondary?? I have reverted the name change for the moment. If you have an alternative primary source then I'm happy to change the article back. Thanks, Ian Cairns 08:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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- My point was there is only one source that gives Jaques as her birthname, all other sources don't. And as I said GRO Index is not the birth certificate, mistakes can occur on the GRO Index that would be correct on certificate. If her birth certificate says Jaques, fair enough, but I'm not convinced by the GRO Index. Mistakes do occur on it, and I cannot believe that if it was true her birthname was Jaques it would not be more widely known or searchable. I will do a Yahoo! search now. --UpDown 08:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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- My point is that my primary source was verifiable. You then changed it because of some unstated sources "All sources .. say.." - whether primary or secondary is unknown. The onus is on you to provide an alternative verifiable PRIMARY source. Yes, the GRO can make mistakes. Most often, these are corrected by a later entry, with the original index entry manually annotated with a reference to the later entry. There was no such annotation in this case. There were both JAQUES and JACQUES births in the quarter concerned. Ian Cairns 08:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe your primary source is a good one frankly. Mistakes do occur, and I feel her certificate is needed. All other sources, yes not primary I admit, appear to say she was born Jacques. She appears to be occasionally credited as Jaques, but I would like to know whether she ever changed her name legally, and I think her authorised biography may be of some help here. Do you have a copy by any chance?--UpDown 09:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Before it becomes an issue, Yahoo is not a primary source. I reverted your reversion because you have not stated any primary sources for your changes. Ian Cairns 09:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- My point is that my primary source was verifiable. You then changed it because of some unstated sources "All sources .. say.." - whether primary or secondary is unknown. The onus is on you to provide an alternative verifiable PRIMARY source. Yes, the GRO can make mistakes. Most often, these are corrected by a later entry, with the original index entry manually annotated with a reference to the later entry. There was no such annotation in this case. There were both JAQUES and JACQUES births in the quarter concerned. Ian Cairns 08:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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- Have you read WP:VERIFY? I think this would be useful. You have provided / identified no verifiable source(s). If you do, then we can discuss whether my primary source is better than your source(s). At the moment, it is one verifiable primary source against unstated sources. In my opinion, the GRO is a definitive source for many things in life - try obtaining a passport. Not always correct, as you say, but errors are thankfully extremely rare and usually corrected.
- No, I don't have a copy of her autobiography. Ian Cairns 09:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Parents
Jacques is an uncommon surname; Jaques is a still less common spelling of Jacques. Josephine Edwina Jaques' 1922 birth register entry states categorically that her mother's maiden name was Thorn. There has only been one definite and one other possible Jaques = Thorn marriages recorded in England and Wales between 1837 and 1922 (according to FreeBMD):
- Jun 1871 9c 153 BARNSLEY - Elizabeth Jaques = either William Myers or Edward Thorn (if Jaques did marry Thorn rather than Myers, then they may have celebrated their Golden Wedding in 1921 if they survived that long)
- Dec 1919 1a 1102 CHELSEA - Robin Jaques = Mary A. Thorn
Of these, only one marriage has a wife's maiden name as Thorn.
Of course, there's always the theoretical possibility of a different Jaques = Thorn marriage in another country of the world, where the couple just happened to emigrate and arrive in Sandgate by 1922?? Presumably, this couple is being identified as I write. I look forward to further developments. Ian Cairns 18:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- Just in case the Jacques (NB: spelling) = Thorn theory is about to resurface, there was only one possibility of these according to FreeBMD:
- Dec 1844 XV 122 HINCKLEY - Ann Jacques married one of Thomas Needle, William Osborne, Thomas Thorn, Joseph Tinson
- but again, the mmn would be Jacques, not Thorn. I think this supports the view that the original Jaques spelling was no aberration. Ian Cairns 18:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
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- Another reference for the fact that her father was called Robin Jaques - this time, a FWW RFC pilot who died 1922 (but not confirmed in the GRO Death Register): http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-284642.html
- Her brother was also called Robin Jaques - he was born in Fulham - close to Chelsea, the place their parents married - Robin Jacques, artist and illustrator: born 27 March 1920; married 1943 Patricia Bamford (deceased), 1958 Azetta van der Merwe (deceased; one son), thirdly Alexandra Mann (marriage dissolved); died 18 March 1995. His birth: GRO Register of Births JUN 1920 1a 724 FULHAM Robin JAQUES, mmn = Thorn - same mmn as Josephine Edwina JAQUES...
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- Her son was called Robin Le Mesurier
- It is clear that both Jaques siblings renamed as Jacques at some stage - it wasn't just Hattie Ian Cairns 23:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes of course its most likely to be her parents, but I'm deeply unhappy about assuming so, even if it is very likely. We are not here to assume, but to report facts. This is at best an educated guess, and thats unacceptable. Her parents names aren't that important to the article, and regardless I'm sure we can find a source where it says her parents names. I'm uneasy about your reliance on the GRO Indexes, and details such as her mother was "Mary A Thorn", no need to say the "A", it suggests that A is her middle name. May I also remind you that according to Template: Infobox Person (and other templates} that the parents and child fields should only be filled in if the parents/child are "notable". Her parents & children aren't notable, and should only appear in the text not Infobox. --UpDown 07:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
