Talk:Handloading

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Good article Handloading was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Contents


[edit] Annealing

An anonymous user at 69.243.38.8 removed the information on heating and quenching the brass to anneal it, with the following comment:

(→Maximizing case life - Removed bad science on annealing.. quenching does not stop the annealing process... it prevents it.. annealing requires the item cool s-l-o-w-l-y, quenching causes hardness)

While slow cooling is the processed used to anneal steel (since you want the grain strucutre in the annealed steel as large as possible), brass is a different matter. Once the brass reaches 660F, the work hardening has been undone, and the cooling doesn't really have an impact on the hardness of the case mouth. The quenching is done to prevent heat transfer to the base of the case, which should remain harder than the mouth. Calling this process "annealing" is slightly misleading; what is really happening is a from of controlled heat treatment. Just like tempering steel, you carefully raise the temperature to the level which will reduce the hardness to the desired level, then you quench immediately; leaving the metal at the tempering temperature too long will "age" the metal, and reduce the hardness further. In fact, quenching doesn't really stop the softening process, it merely slows it down by many orders of magnitude. Even at room temperature, metals will loose their hardness over time, but as the time/temperature curve is exponential, it will take thousands of years at least before the loss of hardness becomes noticable. scot 14:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another plagiarized article?

I cleaned up the brief intro, and reordered some sections; but I hesitate to further edit for brevity something that is uncommonly well-written for Wikipedia, and reads like it was lifted directly from what may be a copyrighted source. Comments? -- Mukrkrgsj 08:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

You'll have to take my word on it, but I started editing the article at this point, compare that to the end of my first run at the article here. Since I know I didn't copy anything (wrote a bunch of it from memory, in fact) I'll take this as a compliment.  :) scot 21:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed references to Speer Gold Dots being plated bullets. Gold dots are bonded jacketed hollowpoints, not plated.

If you read the description, they "bond the copper jacket to the lead core one molecule at a time"; this is done via an electroplating process. See here for the patent number applicable to the Gold Dot bullets, and here for the patent description. scot 20:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The article needs a lot of cleanup for little inaccuracies and inconsistencies, but overall is good. I don't think it's plagiarized; it's just similar to what most folks write on the subject, because there's really only one way to do it right.

Cbyrneiv 17:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC) Chris Byrne

[edit] Pictures

I know I added a lot of pictures, but I think many of the things described in the article are unfamiliar and hard to picture for those who aren't experienced with handloading. If someone wants to take a better crack at layout, please do. Plus if you need any additional or slightly different pictures, please suggest such. I'll give it a try. Arthurrh 21:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Since you've got the image handy on your computer, why not rotate the top image (bullet, powder, case, primer) 90 degrees, and set it opposite the TOC in the top paragraph? scot 22:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. It does look better. Thanks. Arthurrh 23:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

  1. Broadness: Pass
  2. Well-written: Pass
  3. Images: Pass
  4. Factually accurate: Pass
  5. Neutral POV: Pass
  6. Stable: Pass

Great job on the article. Passed easily.Mitch32contribs 20:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed that the article was passed, but I have some concerns about the lack of in-line citations. The majority of the sections go completely unreferenced. At the risk of second-guessing the original reviewer, I hesitate to say this article passes GA criteria. Drewcifer3000 21:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
User:scot was contacted on this subject and will begin inkining the citations.--SidiLemine 16:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Cool. I'll hold off on a GA review for a while then. Drewcifer 19:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
My error, sorry about that.Mitch32contribs 21:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The GA criteria is in the process of changing at the moment, and the requirements for in-line citations are being relaxed a bit. So, I'm happy to say that the in-line citations thing is no longer a problem. Drewcifer 00:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do you see what I see?

The citations are coming up: {{{author}}}, {{{title}}}, [[{{{publisher}}}]], [[{{{date}}}]]. Whassup? Trekphiler 07:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The times, they are...?

Somebody want to add something on the history of handloading? When did it go from a necessity (paper cartridges?) to a "hobby"? Trekphiler 07:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

A good idea. I'll start looking for references. Here's one:
scot 19:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of May 11, 2008, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR.

  • Large parts and even entire sections are unreferenced, e.g., Primer pocket tools and Accuracy tips.
  • The use of personal pronouns as in: "Die-based trimmers allow you to ..." should be avoided.
  • There has been a {{fact}} tag in Presses since September 2007.
  • Reference #10 is a dead link
  • Many of the references appear to be to commercial web sites. WP:RS says that: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy".
  • Text should not be squeezed between left- and right-aligned images.
  • The article appears to rely very heavily on one book, Nonte's Basic Handloading. As that book has 185 pages, it would be better to put the book citation in a separate Bibliography and for each citation to state which page or pages are being used. For instance <ref>Nonte (1978), p. 56.</ref> It's better to do that for all printed sources, as it makes it easier for a reader to check the accuracy of what's being claimed.

--Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've done some work on this.
  • I've changed all the Nonte references to point to specific chapters that contained the appropriate supporting information.
  • I've reworded the personal pronoun sections, and changed some of the process information to a less "how-to" format.
  • I fixed the .56-50 picture link to point to another page on the manufacturer's wesite; can't find a picture any more, so I changed the link description as well.
  • I've added some {{fact}} tags on things that still need references; I'll work on filling those in later.
  • The statement "Articles should rely on..." is not equivalent to the statement "Articles should rely solely on...". Manufacturer information is self-published information, and "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves". The sources are manufacturers of handloading equipment and supplies, who may be presumed to be experts in the field, and the references are used to back up specific claims about equipment of the type made by the cited manufacturer.
More to come later... scot (talk) 16:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
A list of statements that need citations:
  • X Low cost of shotshells makes reloading them less popular
  • X (removed section, found conflicting reference) Balance scales more accurate for a skilled user
  • Scoring on bullet surface does not impact accuracy
  • X Uniforming of flash holes increases consistency and accuracy
  • X Small base dies for semiautomatics and minimum chamber rifles
  • X Use of hard primers to prevent slamfires
  • X Roll crimps increase chamber pressure and produce more power with slow powders
  • X Fitted neck in benchrest rifles improves case life
  • X Low pressure loads increase case life
scot (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Legal section

The legal section is misleading. Firearms manufacturers don't advise against using handloads, but rather everyone advises sticking to SAAMI pressure specifications. You should be able to easily handload to the limit of the pressure capacity of the weapon. The way the section was previously worded shows ignorance to the fact that most handloading is done to lessen the pressure of the charge. This is touched upon elsewhere in the article so I cannot figure out how any other interpretation could be considered. To make it short and sweet - the manufacturers are saying that the only loads they approve of are loads which have been tested. Exceed the recommended maximum load and they won't promise anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.150.11.25 (talk) 21:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, and how are you going to prove that that load that you just fired, which blew up your gun, was within SAAMI specs? Are you personally ISO 9000 certified? Ruger flat out says "do not use", and Remington and Smith and Wesson both state that handloaded ammunition must be pressure tested, which is beyond the abilities of most handloaders. This is the same reason you're not supposed to use handloads in a defensive gun, because of the lack of provability. Just because most handloaders are competent isn't relevant, when there are the rest of them that will keep pushing until (if they're lucky) the blow out primer pockets or (if they're not so lucky) blow up guns. I once made the utterly idiotic mistake of trusting someone else's handloads, and got a face full of powder blowby from an XP-100, and ended up having to pry the brass from the bolt face with a pair of pliers--the primer pocket was blown out so far, the case head pressure formed around the extractor. scot (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)