Talk:Gypsy Rose Lee

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The article says:

...their mother, who had opened a lesbian boardinghouse ...

What on earth is a lesbian boardinghouse? A boarding house is your moms house!

Dominus 14:23, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Reply: A lesbian boardinghouse is a rooming house that provides meals for homosexual women.

Contents

[edit] Tagged.

I've tagged this article for cleanup, because it seems to contain a very roundabout recounting of information that's far from useful and even farther from clear. Someone who knows more about Gypsy Rose Lee, or even just someone who can donate the time and effort, would be a great help in smoothing out this article's rougher edges.

[edit] Cuppa Rosie anyone?

Is this the Rosie Lee who gave rise to the rhyming slang expression for tea? If so, I think it deserves a mention - she is famous in the UK even though nobody knows who she was. If not, the rhyming slang article needs editing.

[edit] Gypsy Rose Lee's age?

The article says:

"Gypsy Rose Lee (also known as Rose Louise Hovick and Louise Hovick) (February 9, 1914 - April 26, 1970)" and "In 1970, she died in Los Angeles, California, at the age of 59"

Either she is born in 1914 and died at the age of 56 or she is born in 1911. I thought I knew the answer but I can see that people do not agree on whether she is born in 1911 or 1914.

If you read Gypsy: a memoir, she talks about her mother tampering with Gypsy and her sister's birth records to make them old enough to play in Canada. She supposedly replaced the original documents with very good forgeries. So she was probably actually born on the later date, 1914, and so died at 56.

I changed the age of death to 56 because if we're gonna use 1914 as the birth year, than math dictates she died at 56. It seemed silly to use two ages of death. I think it's worth mentioning in the article that is some ambiguity about the whole issue. Just say something about how in Gypsy: A Memoir it gives 1914 as the most likely birth year.--DarshaAssant 03:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The article says that June was a) born "several years" after Gypsy (i.e., after 1911 or 1914), b) got married at 16, c) later had a child, in 1930. Unless we assume the 1911 birthdate is correct and that June was born in 1914, at least one of these facts is incorrect. Can anyone who's more knowledgeable about the subject reconcile them? --Deusnoctum 20:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

OK. I think I have it (or maybe not, but I'm giving it a try).
Gypsy has a February birthday; June's is in November. If they were born two calendar years apart, they'd actually have almost a three year age difference, which would account for the "several years." So 1914 and 1916 as birthdates for Gypsy and June would work.
As per DarshaAssant's comment above, it's right on. In Gypsy's memoir, she does mention that her mother had forged documents made for June, to try to circumvent the child labor and customs laws. The magic age needed in Canada was 12. June was 9 at the time, so forged documents were made in Vancouver. According to Gypsy, Mama Rose actually managed to get the forgery, which advanced June's age by three years, into the Public Records office and steal the original birth certificate. So anyone attempting to verify June's age would actually come up with the forgery and not the original records. There's no mention of a forgery being made for Gypsy, but that makes sense--if June were 9, Gypsy would have been 12, and would have been fine with her legal documents. The other forged documents were vaccination certificates for Rose's dogs.
June eloped with Bobby in 1929. She was 12 for most of the year, but her legal age would have been 15 and she would have turned 16 at the end of the year. If she were seeking to marry, she would have undoubtedly used the 1913 birthdate in court, which would account for being "married at 16". Having a child in 1930 would mean she became a mother at age 13/14--wow, but it's possible.DanielEng 09:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The mystery novels

Just to note that it's authoritatively demonstrated that these two novels were indeed written by Craig Rice; the citation is from the most authoritative reference book around. Accounting4Taste 02:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It's true that Hubin's book is authoritative, of that I have no doubt, but this is about to become one of those Mankiewicz vs. Welles type of debates that is best understood through a compromise of mutual ignorance (in that both sides only know half the truth). If you read "Februrary House" by Sherill Tippins - a well-researched book in its own right- it spends a great deal of chapters explaining Gypsy's extensive writing process under the tutelage of George Davis. The G-String Murders was not merely "suggested" by Gypsy to Rice. The closest we can really assume is that Rice revised a novel that was mostly finished anyway. Suggesting that Rice completely ghost-wrote the novel is suggesting that Gyspsy had no literary skills of her own. On the contrary, she was more equipped than most people to write a novel. There was never any pretension that it was to be a great work of art, and to suggest that she couldn't pull it off on her own is ridiculous. Her shecule at the time of its publication (she was at the height of her fame) may have accounted for her seeking out professional advice, however. As if living in a house with W.H. Auden, Carson McCullers, George Davis and Klaus Mann and a number of connections at Harper's Bazaar weren't enough. PLUS, she did take nearly a year off her work schedule to work on the darn thing! I'm going to suggest that this be re-written to reflect this. Also, (and I'm afraid this will lead to a backlash of deleting my corrections) I put a citation need tag on the stub for "The G-String Murders" in hopes that someone will change that article as well. Despite it's being written as fact in Hubin's invaluable (for fans of detective fiction)bibliography it really shouldn't be over-simplified so. And it's worthy of further research. I mean, YES, a citation is provided, but that's only half the story. Wellesradio 19:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)Wellesradio

This is certainly an interesting suggestion and one that had not previously come to my attention. My memory is not serving me well, but I seem to recall an advertisement for the novel, or perhaps a photo as part of a magazine piece, that showed Ms. Lee working away at a typewriter; I had assumed it was in the nature of a publicity stunt. It is my understanding that Rice wrote 100% of the novel that was published as by George Sanders, but that was undemanding in terms of a specialized background. It seems nearly certain to me that Ms. Lee had considerable input into the book because of the wealth of detail that could only have been garnered from someone who had lived in the milieu. I would not object to the article stating that they wrote it together, but as someone who's very familiar with Craig Rice's work, there is a certain devil-may-care craziness about the novel that is very Craig Rice-ish. I'll look into this further as best I can and comment when I have more information. Accounting4Taste 20:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)