Talk:Guild of Saint Luke

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An entry from Guild of Saint Luke appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 24 May 2007.

[edit] Antwerp founding

The dates in para 2 contradict the para 1 1453 founding don't they? Johnbod 01:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

And was Antwerp really one of the oldest? Even the London one was founded in the 13th C. Johnbod 04:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It got caught in one of those, two different sources, one mentioning earliest specific records and another referencing first mention at all. I deleted again what I had re-added, just to smooth that question over until it can be clarified elegantly. I'm lacking any mention of London's guild in my literature, so I don't know anything except what's been added. Paris had something, I think (I read a little about the rise of the academy there), and I haven't really discussed "Confraternities of St Luke" other than a mention in Italy. I wanted to distinguish between professional and fraternal motives, but there's still room to grow here. --Stomme 07:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone gets there before me—likely as it won't be immediate—I should probably add something about the differences in the Low Countries between artisan painters (which seems to include the Painter-Stainers Company) and the picture painters and other artists represented by the St Luke Guild. The situation varied in different cities, but it's often discussed (usually in the context of the philosophical standing of the mechanical and liberal arts). Was the London guild dedicated to St Luke, or was it just a professional guild for painters (what the art literature calls "house painters"). I would be very curious to know if St Luke is a patron. If not, it would be something different. I also need to clarify when Rome got a Guild of St. Luke, or if they did. I see it in a number of articles call it such, but I suspect it might have been something different. It will be a month or so before I have access to my Italian literature. --Stomme 08:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

See the link & web-site for London. It included both artists and house-painters, but so for example did Haarlem (see link to Judith Leyster). I'm not sure the distinction between artists & artisan's guilds holds up, at least in the medieval period. Nor a fraternal/professional distinction - I think the point rather was that the two went together. I have more sources, especially for illuminators, I haven't checked yet. Johnbod 14:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

They're discussed quite distinctly in some of the literature I cited, and in Antwerp stuff I've read in the past but don't have on hand at the moment. I didn't initially add it because I didn't think there would be so much general guild information. But now that it's an issue, I'll try and add a few sources when I get a chance. --Stomme 15:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, I see we've sort of approached this from two slightly different angles, which somewhat explains the question whether Antwerp is the oldest. I was focusing on the "Guild of St Luke"—the painters' guild— but not necessarily in general terms on guilds to which painters belonged that might or might not have been that particular guild. I think its fine if their is a broad approach, but I think that explains some of the discrepancies. For instance, in my approach, even though the Worshipful Company of Painter-Stainers represented painters and even honored St Luke on certain days, I don't have an indication of it actually being a "Guild of St Luke". My changes in the Italian section were somewhat concerned with explaining how guilds and societies dedicated to the saint coexisted or merged. As far as I know, however, the strict Guild of St Luke is primarily Netherlandish (and region). --Stomme 15:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am broadening the treatment for now - at some future point there might be enough to have two articles. There was a Roman "Compagna di San Lucca" & a Parisian "compagnie..", but I don't know much about them. The crucial point is if, and when, the local authorities authorised any group to regulate certain areas of trade, which in many cases seems only to have arrived long after they were founded. Many medieval bodies corporate contained a saints name tucked away in their full title (there were legal reasons for this, as often the saint technically owned the assets of the body, which was useful in the absence of corporate or trust law) which might or might not be used in their everyday title, so I not sure the presence or absence of "St Luke" in the normal title is the defining factor. That seems to have been a general pattern, where guilds in London, Zurich & elsewhere just had utilitarian names (it seems), whilst in Italy & the Netherlands saints names were used - St Eloi for the goldsmiths etc. Since Netherlandish Guilds of St Luke evidently contained trades seen as related, such as house-painting in Haarlem & saddlemaking in Bruges (also in Zurich), I don't really see them as a distinct phenomenon within the pattern of guilds, although the late diffusion of them to smaller towns might be - but I saw Aberdeen had a painters guild in the C17th - I wonder when that was founded? Johnbod 16:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)