Talk:Guild

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This article needs to be rewritten. The quality is not nearly high enough. An understanding of the rise of Guilds in the late 13th century and their later demise is crucial to understanding economic, political and social structures in Europe, through the Late Middle Ages, Rennaisance, Reformation and rise of nation states. This article is just a jumble of unrelated ideas and mere opinion. Really it would be better if it was deleted. Sorry to be harsh but it is not up to Wikipedia standard. 203.59.193.69 (talk) 05:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)Sam Wylie University of Melbourne

Contents

[edit] Old talk

I've tried to remove some things that seem to break the NPOV. This part was removed in it's entirety:

...however, the similarities are few and there are important differences. Because of this, the guild could regulate pricing, quality, training, working hours, sales hours, and other such things. In many towns, the guilds were the wealthiest organizations and would use their considerable finances to build grandiose guild halls and to finance festivities.

Some guild were obviously not wealthy. A more nuanced account is needed.

Nixdorf

Nice work, Nixdorf. Article much improved. Tannin

Yes, much. It still however needs a section on the rise of modern guilds, including those that Thomas Malone at MIT advocates, and some that already exist like the Writers Guild of America and Screen Actors Guild that do in fact exercise much of the control that the old guilds did. The new article does a good job of pointing out why the guilds were abolished - but "free trade" and "technology improvement" are not universal goods, obviously. So the guild's modern champions must be mentioned, or we make the POV mistake of assuming that both free trade and "improved" technology are public goods. EofT
It now mentions Malone, SAG, WGA, and reflects some of the debate over free trade - but not the trade bloc and intellectual property debates, nor the issue of when technology "improvement" by "just anybody" is a bad thing, for instance, "improving" a virus and selling it to terrorists. This seems like a professional issue, artisanship probably doesn't extend down into the life form.

The picture "An example of the last of the British Guilds meeting rooms c1820" has to be removed. It shows a room of Freemasons, which are an intolerant secret society.

--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.182.198 (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC) The article has improved vastly since yesterday, I'm flabbergasted! Overall splendid work. It may be overly focused on economics and intellectual property though, more views of the social function of the guilds should be added at some date. Please also add a few references. Nixdorf

The origin of the term "journeyman" as given on this page is different to the origin given in the journeyman article itself. Is there someone more knowledgable than me who could correct whichever article is wrong? -- Vardion 08:55, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A lack of meaningful global competition may be part of the reason why guilds can persist in this industry.

I removed this sentence. As far as I know, Hollywood is not even the largest film industry, let alone the only meaningful one. Burschik 15:05, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] grammar improvement needed

The second paragraph under the subheading "Modern guilds" needs to be edited. It has very poor sentence structure.

[edit] MMORPG?

guild wars: an mmorpg pay for the game, with no mothly fees!!

[edit] Unclear bit

Perhaps I'm just dumb, but this section seems very unclear to me:

The fall of the guilds was caused by a social uprising of the people who had been influenced by the guild members into believing that the badges worn by the guilds represented police organizations when the badges represented thieves guilds. The badges worn by modern-day police are a symbolic representation of this British Island tradition. And the roman decendants participation in this ancient tradition is a representation of their modern association.

Were there really thieve's guilds operating, pretending to be police? Was this phenomenon confined to Britain? The last sentence makes no sense at all. Clarification would be appreciated. --Nbishop 00:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economics of guilds?

Surely guilds had some economic system? Perhaps membership fees? I started a basic category for economics, I hope it is added to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.62.158.9 (talk) 14 April 2006

[edit] guilds: role as participants in the mystery plays and fthe role of the family within the guild structure

not mentioned in the article is the connection between guilds and religion, some of the guilds staged mystery plays, acting or providing sets, scenery and such like. Also guilds, notably the frith or peace guilds were generally organised around families so that there was continuity over time and so that apprenticiship followed along family lines. As a modern example the last of the City of London companies that has more than a ceremonial role, the Watermen and Lightermens guild still usually takes its apprentices from families who have previous connections to the trade. The role guilds played in staging mystery plays also points to the origin of the word mystery, meaning variously a trade and a religious rite or observance. These rites go back beyond Christianity to Ancient Greece and Rome and possibly other groupings of the early history period, some information or discussion on this topic as well as its inclusion in wiki would be useful, signed bamboodragon 13/10/2006

[edit] Society of Englishmen and Sons of Englishmen?

On April 23, 1773 (St. George's Day), Carpenters' Hall would be used by the Society of Englishmen and Sons of Englishmen.

Any information on this Guild? —Dogears (talk · contribs) 02:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss links here

Editors regularly clean out undiscussed links from this article. Please discuss here if you want a link not to be cleaned out regularly. (You can help!)--VS talk 04:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

VS talk has removed an external link to a website which I published. I believe the link is a relevant citation to this article. I acknowledge as an editor of this article, this is potentially a conflict of interest.

The link:

is an original source relating to Guilds and the development of trade unions and other benefit societies. I believe this link is still relevant to the article. Under Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline I should not add external links to articles I have published (even though they may be authoritative texts) except after raising them for discussion on the talk page. Please discuss and decide on the relevancy of the link.--Takver 16:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The link should be an inline citation for this sentence under European History. The <references/> tag will need to be placed in the References section also. --Takver 23:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The guilds also maintained funds in order to support infirm or elderly members, as well as widows and orphans of guild members, funeral benefits, and a 'tramping' allowance for those needing to travel to find work<ref>[http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/ctormys.htm Craft, Trade or Mystery: Part One - Britain from Gothic Cathedrals to the Tolpuddle Conspirators] By Dr Bob James (revised 2002)</ref>.

[edit] Tags

How has this article avoided becoming littered every half-sentence with {{Fact}} tags?


Can anyone tell me if guilds are only groups of craftsmen/artisans, or can they also be soldiers or warriors? like in the World of Warcraft guilds. I thought guild were simply groups of people together in a union of some kind. Black Serpent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Black Serpent (talk • contribs) 12:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lacks definition?

i was looking for what it is, if there is something more to it. in a conscise form. havent found it :( 84.16.123.194 (talk) 04:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)