Talk:GRU

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Contents

[edit] The article needs changes

It needs them badly. Common style of the article isn't neutrile and antirussian. There are alot of definatly antirussian sources like different defectors and others such peopels, there are alot of unprooven phrases from politicians, that looks more like populism, then well-weighted statements. This should be cleaned out. Even references list in the end begins with GRUs defectors and so on - I don't think this is correct, as it's not GRUs purpose. Oleg_Str

[edit] Rewrite sentence

Could someone rewrite the following sentence:

During its history, the GRU was always a subordinate to the NKVD, its successors (KGB, etc.), the GRU has at different times, made very spectacular recruits of foreign agents, and was the first Soviet intelligence service, to exploit the lax security of western companies, and began to steal S&T (Science and technology) though this later became a domain controlled by KGB, under line x, later Directorate T.

It's a long, run-on sentence and I can't make heads nor tails of it. Abigail 16:25, May 14, 2004 (UTC)

how's this:
During the entire period it operated, GRU was always subordinate to the NKVD and its successors (KGB, etc.). The GRU was particularly successful in recruiting foreign agents, and was the first Soviet intelligence service to exploit the lax security of western companies. GRU agents pioneered espionage targeted at gaining science and technology (S&T) material. This function later fell to the KGB, under its "line x" (later Directorate T).
-- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:17, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Article rename

Any objection to an article rename to the full name? To be more consistent with other Russian articles. -Joseph 04:24, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

The renaming is wrong. The abbreviation GRU is well known, the full name is not so. — Monedula 20:59, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC).


[edit] Holy Similarities Batman!

Was the symbol of the GRU spetsnaz later adapted into Batman's symbol? The two are pretty much identical. I scanned through Batman's article, and nothing of the sort was listed under "Costume."

Your title for this section made me laugh. First I thought they had nicked the Batman logo, but it's the other way around[citation needed]. The spanish version of this article has a similar logo. AFAIK, this logo is the real one. I think its supposed to represent a bird overlooking the world, not a bat.--81.105.251.160 22:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NOT emblem of GRU

The emblem pictured on this page is NOT that of GRU. Along the bottom is does in fact say, in Russian, "Military intelligence," but along the top the acronym is "VS RF." I'm not sure what "VS" means, but "RF" certainly means "Russian Federation" ("Rossiiskaia federatsiia" in Russian). In other words, this emblem might be that of a post-Soviet successor organization, but it is NOT that of the Soviet-era GRU. Terrasirradient 16:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This (see the second image) seems to imply that the logo (if not the GRU name) is still in current use. Lionfire 01:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's correct for the current GRU. VS RF is Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (perhaps better sense is Military Forces of the Russian Federation). Buckshot06 14:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of text

Vlad Fedorov deleted the following large portions of text:

During 2006 Georgian-Russian espionage controversy several GRU officers were accused by Georgian authorities of preparations to commit sabotage and terrorist acts. GRU detachments from Chechnya were transferred to Lebanon independently on the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon after 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict "to improve Russia’s image in the Arab world", according to Sergei Ivanov.[1] Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev was assassinated by two GRU officers. GRU officers are accused of creating criminal death squads[2]

Special services are making teams for extrajudicial punishment (Russian)] by Igor Korolkov, Novaya Gazeta, January 11, 2007. </ref> It was reported that GRU helped Saddam Hussein to hide his Weapons of mass destruction before US invasion of Iraq in 2003[3][4][4]

[edit] References

  1. ^ Moscow posts two Chechen platoons in S. Lebanon, one headed by an ex-rebel commander, "to improve Russia’s image in the Arab world" by DEBKAfile
  2. ^ Special services are making teams for extrajudicial punishment (Russian) by Igor Korolkov, Novaya Gazeta, January 11, 2007.
  3. ^ Saddam's WMDs and Russia -by David Dastych, Canada Free Press, February 28, 2006
  4. ^ a b Russia Hid Saddam's WMDs -by Ion Mihai Pacepa, Washington Times, October 2, 2003. This text was supported by references and relevant to the subject. Therefore, I had to restore it. ~~~~

    [edit] Iraq/ WMD

    I read both articles that are referenced as supporting the claim, that the GRU cleaned Iraq of WMD's before the 2003 Invasion- but both of articles are mere speculation and there is not one official source or some documents that they are based on. Also, both were published in the Washington Times and that is as if Wikipedia would rely solely on Fox News for its political articles. Therefore i removed the sentence until some proof backs this claim up. ~~~~

    [edit] Reply (GRU and Saddam's WMD)

    Russia "Cleaned Up" Saddam's WMD

    Former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw, a "top Pentagon official who was responsible for tracking Saddam Hussein's weapons programs before and after the 2003 liberation of Iraq," stated in October 2004, March 2005, and again in February 2006 that it was the Russians who helped Saddam Hussein to "clean up" his weapons of mass destruction stockpiles "to prevent the United States from discovering them." [1]

    In late October 2004, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the United Nations' "nuclear watchdog", told the UN Security Council that the Iraqi Interim Government "reported to the agency" that approximately 380 tons of "conventional explosives" were "missing" from the "vast" Al Qa Qaa complex of "1,100 buildings" [2] about 30 miles south of Baghdad "after last year's invasion." [3][4][5]

    IAEA Director-General Mohamed ElBaradei "passed on the letter from Iraqi authorities informing the agency of the theft." [6] The IAEA said that "the material, sealed and monitored by its inspectors until the US-led invasion, had gone missing some time after" April 9, 2003, "during 'the theft and looting of governmental installations'." The IAEA "last inspected the munitions at al-Qaqaa in January 2003 but [had] not been allowed back into Iraq" following the invasion. [7]

    The Associated Press reported October 25, 2004, that, "At the Pentagon, an official who monitors developments in Iraq said U.S.-led coalition troops had searched Al-Qaqaa in the immediate aftermath of the March 2003 invasion and confirmed that the explosives, under IAEA seal since 1991, were intact. Thereafter, the site was not secured by U.S. forces, the official said, also speaking on condition of anonymity."

    The Pentagon was "unclear" as to whether or not the explosives had "disappeared" after the site in Iraq "fell under US control." [8][9]

    On February 18, 2006, Shaw "told an audience" at "a privately sponsored 'Intelligence Summit'" in Alexandria, Virginia, that "The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from the Russians went was that they went" to Syria and the Bekka valley in Lebanon, Kenneth R. Timmerman reported February 19, 2006, in NewsMax. "They were moved by Russian Spetsnaz (special forces) units out of uniform, that were specifically sent to Iraq to move the weaponry and eradicate any evidence of its existence," Shaw said.

    However, the Financial Times (UK) reported October 28, 2004, that Shaw had "not provided evidence for his claims and the Pentagon [had] distanced itself from his remarks."

    On December 10, 2004, Bill Gertz reported in The Washington Times that Shaw, who was a former aide to Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, "was forced to leave his position ... as the result of a 'reorganization' that eliminated his job, defense officials said. ... Shaw said he had been asked to resign for 'exceeding his authority' in disclosing the information, a charge he called 'specious'."

    It was reported that GRU helped Saddam Hussein to hide his weapons of mass destruction before the US invasion of Iraq in 2003<ref> [http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21448 Saddam's WMDs and Russia] -by David Dastych, Canada Free Press, February 28, 2006 </li></ol></ref>

    [edit] 2003

    [edit] 2004

    [edit] 2005

    [edit] 2006

    Biophys 02:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Deletion of sourced text - again?!

    Someone just deleted again the text, ignoring that I provided six additional reliable references. He just said: "obvious anti-russian propaganda removed". This simply means: "I do not like it". Well, if you do not like it, please provide alternative good references that say: Russia did not help Saddam to hid his WMD. That would be just fine. But simply deleting well sourced text is vandalism. Of course this subject is controversial and may need a proper description of all "pro" and "contra" based on published sources. If this is the problem, I can create a separate article Russia and Saddam's weapons of mass destruction controversy. Any opinions? Can one suggest a better title?Biophys 18:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


    [edit] Large scale deletions without consensus

    At 16:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC) I placed a comment on the talk page of User_talk:Vlad_fedorov who has been conspicuous by

    • his absence from these pages
    • his consecutive deletions, without any prior discussion, of material provided by other editors

    This is the exact quote of what I wrote on his user page:

    "Wikipedia as a community has rules to prevent edit wars.
    One of these is the 3RR rule.
    If you wish to delete large passages of another editor's work without providing any references, it is more polite to discuss your proposed changes on the article's talk page FIRST.
    If you do not, your excisions may be regarded as vandalism.
    Please proceed immediately to talk:GRU and discuss your point of view (POV) with fellow editors there before reverting this article again.
    If you do not, you run the risk of being blocked from Wikipedia.
    You may find that Wikipedia:Wikiquette provides some helpful guidance. Thank you for your anticipated compliance."

    Within less than half an hour (and without any further discussion or comment) at 17:05, 8 April 2007 Vlad fedorov had expunged my comments using the following as his edit summary: "Personal offence removed"

    I am posting my comments here because I have a strong suspicion that any further help I offer on Vlad fedorov's user pages will also be expunged.W. Frank 17:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

    I'd stay out of this fight, Frank. Most of the sources are in Russian and it's doubtful that your protagonist will be able to learn anything about Wikipedia's procedures - take a look at this if you don't believe what you'll be getting into:
    Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Vlad_fedorov —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gaimhreadhan (talk • contribs) 19:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC).
    Could you be more accurate and tell me what have I violated here. I left some comments earlier on this page and GRU article page history shows all my explanations. I have edited right not a case of Alexey Galkin "confessions" rceived under torture. Other would follow shortly. Vlad fedorov 08:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
    That's a half-truth. The first thing you did was chop out anything you regard as "anti-Putin" AGAIN. Then you added a lot of stuff about Chechen's torturing someone. I think the place for that is in a separate article (perhaps referenced from the GRU article if you think it relevant).
    What you violate is WP policies. You keep trying to censor people. This is not very effective on Wikipedia since the edit histories will always reveal what you have been up to.
    I read what happened when Frank tried to respond to you in a helpful and polite way on your user talk page at User_talk:Vlad_fedorov. Instead of reading the Wikipedia articles he helpfully pointed you towards, you "shot the messenger" and simply deleted his post!
    I realise it's not very pleasant having someone suggest that you read Wikipedia:Wikiquette for some helpful guidance but I really do think you should. And if you really can't understand AFTER READING THAT ARTICLE why people are fed up with you simply deleting their work without any discussion, then I personally think you should leave the English version of Wikipedia alone and go and annoy people somewhere else.
    Why you constantly try to abuse me? What I have written about Alexey Galkin was taken word in word from the most Anti-Putin newspaper in Russia Novaya Gazeta. One of the most known of its journalists is the Anna Politkovskaya. So your ignorance of the subject is fantastic. Instead of thanking me about publishing new sources on the subject, I receive personal attack from vindicating me of "violations" of WP policy. Which point have I violated? Cite me citation and show me the reference. It is you who wants a rubbish to be published about Russia. Moreover, you are person who doesn't even knows Russian and can't study Russian sources.Vlad fedorov 16:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
    I have made allowances previously for the fact that your native language is not English, but you are going to have to stop your whining and name calling. First you label Frank as uncivil and now you are accusing me of abuse. Just "close your mouth and open your ears" go and actually read and study Wikipedia:Wikiquette BEFORE YOU POST AGAIN. We have a phrase in English: "the pot calling the kettle black" so now I'm going to follow the advice above and take a deep long breath......Gaimhreadhan(kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 19:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
    Once again, I asked you to cite me what rules, policies or guidelines of Wikipedia I have violated. Instead of saying something substantial, you just continue you personal attacks on me. Please read the following in Wikiquette which you cited: "Remind yourself that these are people you're dealing with. They are individuals with feelings and probably have other people in the world who love them. Try to treat others with dignity". All I see from you currently is also non-complying with Wikiquette. So look at the mirror, before writing about me. You already talk on my personality and not about GRU and you are already in violation of the rule "Argue facts, not personalities". So please, "close your mouth and open your ears" yourself.Vlad fedorov 03:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    I wished to contact you in a non-public way since I know that you're not a native user of English but you're a difficult man to contact: User_talk:Vlad_fedorov#Contact. I would be very much obliged if you could use the preview facility when you have thought of some changes and then try and group the tiny (NOT the huge) changes together in one batch since it is getting very difficult to follow (and, if necessary) correct and/or enhance the drift of your multiple consecutive 'machine-gun' edits - especially when many continue to be undiscussed here first...Gaimhreadhan(kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 08:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Case of Galkin

    First, this is article about GRU, not about Galkin. Of course, one can create a separate article about him and refer to this article here. Second, this text is based mostly on two articles from Novaya Gazeta, which is not accessible. According to WP:SOURCE#Language, "when editors use their own translations, the original-language material should be provided too, preferably in a footnote, so that readers can check the translation for themselves.". Please provide the original Russian text here or anywhere. Otherwise, this does not satisfy WP:SOURCE.Biophys 17:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

    I concur...Gaimhreadhan(kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 19:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
    It might be a good idea to make articles about Alexei Galkin, Achemez Gochiyaev and some other people involved in the Russian apartment bombings controversy. But we need sources that satisfy WP:SOURCE. Biophys 19:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
    I have fixed the links which were already seen in the source code of the page. Now you try them.Vlad fedorov 03:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    Vlad provided the sources, and they seem to be O'K except incorrect translation of some titles. So, I have created new article Aleksey Galkin and transfered all materials about him there. Now, his case should be only briefly mentioned in this article.Biophys 16:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Saddam's WMD controversy

    This is article about GRU. The claims about Saddam's WMD are controversial and only remotely related to this organization. One could tell only one or two phrases in this article, as it was in the initial version. But right now Vlad included a lot of text about it. So, it would be better to make a separate article about this controversy, and remove it from here. I will try to make this right now, since I might be blocked soon.Biophys 23:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC) Well, this might be yet another article for AfD. Still, let's try. If Wikipedia community decides to remove it - I do not care much. One thing for sure: a long story about Saddam's WMD does not belong here.Biophys 00:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

    Just an update. If article Russia and Saddam WMD allegations will survive AfD, this segment of text should be only briefly mentioned, just as the description of Aleksey Galkin case. This material is not so important. Biophys 23:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Original research by Biophys

    Biophys inserted information about Operation Sarindar by Pacepa. BUT PACEPA NOWHERE CLAIMS THAT OPERATION SARINDAR WAS PERFORMED BY GRU. User Biophys has made original research which should be deleted from the article immediately. Vlad fedorov 12:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Basayev

    The GRU played a considerable role in Russia’s attempts to exploit the 1992-1993 war between Abkhazia and Georgia. While Moscow officially supported Georgia in the conflict, imposing sanctions against Abkhazia, the Minister of Defense, Pavel Grachev, provided considerable military support to the Abkhaz side, apparently on his own personal initiative. Anton Surikov, who as a GRU officer was directly involved in these events (many consider that he was Basaev’s kurator in Abkhazia, though he himself denies it), later stated: “That [Pavel Grachev] carried out in Abkhazia his own personal policy is true. And this, from the point of view of Russia’s interests, was a very useful and correct policy. Without Grachev Abkhazia would not have stood. He personally was the true organizer of the defense of the republic.” The Russian military, under Grachev’s command, at the very least allowed the Confederation of the Mountain Peoples of the Caucasus to send several volunteer battalions to back the Abkhaz, which proved key to the Abkhaz victory in 1993; most probably, these battalions also received logistical support and training from the GRU. Information has persistently surfaced that the Caucasian battalions’ most talented commander, Shamil Basaev, who was named Deputy Minister of Defense of Abkhazia, was trained at a GRU base near Volgograd in 1992. The GRU also reportedly deployed its own Spetznaz unit, under Surikov’s command, tasked, between August and October 1992, with eliminating Georgian field commanders. [10]Biophys 20:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)