Talk:Greek refugees

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Contents 1 Negative effects 2 Initial comments 3 Greek phrases 4 Pontic Greeks 5 refugees

[edit] Negative effects

This new section contains valuable information, but suffers from some POVishness, and may in fact be a bit vague. I started editing, but realized what is needed is really a discussion. A few points:

1. The economic status of the Pontic Greeks, Smyrna Greeks, etc. needs documentation. What appears now is overly broad. There tended to be more merchants etc, there tended to be more farmers among Muslims... but specific sources and specific numbers are called for.
2. The economy of pre-Lausanne Anatolia really belongs in an earlier section... I am not certain how, but we could look at reorganizing the article. Perhaps we need a section about the refugees before they were refugeed?
3. The agreement that forsook reparations was signed by the Greek government. The details should be documented.

I have more ideas/questions.

1. Many of the refugees were primarily Turkish-speaking when they arrived. Where should this be indicated? (further, many were resettled in Macedonia, where as long as they were not Slav, was useful for the Greek state)
2. Some of the Black Sea refugees had learned guerilla-fighting in Anatolia, and put it to good use against the Germans in WWII. Is this significant enough to go in?
3. A disproportionate number of leaders of the Communist side in the civil war were refugees or children of refugees. Should this be indicated somehow?
4. Refugees and their descendants today are fully integrated into Greek society, but there was a long period of discrimination, separation, etc. Also, refugees remained a distinct voting bloc for several decades. Perhaps a separate section on their unique history during the decades after their arrival in Greece? Jd2718 16:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Important questions u have raised, Jd2718. I will try to reply as good as i can to each one of them.

1. I will try to find sources about the economic status of the exchanged populations. However, the wording i have used is easily explainable by the fact that the Greeks (along with the Armenians and the Jews) were those holding the ottoman trade (partly due to the fact that the ottomans deemed such activities as "non-manly", and themselves were occupied in other fields).
2. I am in favor of such a section. It would clear up many things. Maybe reorganizing the article is a good idea.
3. The agreement that forsook reparations was signed many years after the Treaty of Lausanne, years during which Turkey was supposed to have paid all reparations. as far as i know, the Greek government singed the agreement, an Ankara Convention, during the late 1920s-early 1930s, in an attempt to "heal" past wounds, foreseeing the European turmoil (which led to WWII). If i am not wrong, in that convention, a number of the Greek minority of Istanbul was given Greek citizenship, but remained subjected to the articles of the Lausanne Treaty concerning them. This convention was violated in 1964, when Turkey expelled the remaining Greek population in two days notice. This, probably, does not belong here. for the first part, i will search for sources and the text of the convention.

About the rest questions and ideas:

1. The only Turkish-speaking refugees were some of the Cappadocian Greeks. The rest were primarily Greek-speaking (note that Smyrna was referred to by the Turks as "gavur Izmir", among others, cause of its predominantly Greek-speaking population (cause many muslims also spoke Greek). As for the Slav population of Greek Macedonia, there was also an agreement of not compulsory population exchange between Greece and Bulgaria. Thus, the not Greek self-identifying slav population of Macedonia went to Bulgaria, and about 200,000 non-ethnic Bulgarian Greek-speaking population of Eastern Rumelia came to Greece (most of whom also settled in Macedonia, Thrace and Thessaly, see Nea Anchialos). The Greek government settled the Asia Minor Greeks in Macedonia, not only to achieve numerical superiority towards the remaining slav-speaking population, but also cause most of the exchanged muslims were from that region (thus to inhabit the places that were evacuated)
2. I think this is rather significant. maybe a whole section concerning the refugees during WWII and the Resistance. Not only about their fighting skills, but also about their efforts to keep the Greek morale high (Sophia Vembo-an article will be created about her some day-, the singer of the victory, was also a refugee from Kallipoli).
3. As above, it can be indicated.
4. The discrimination against the refugees did not last but just for a few years, until houses were built and until the diseases stopped (the local Greek population, blamed the refugees for them). The refugees mainly identified themselves with Venizelism and were heavily anti-royalists. they did not form a distinct voting bloc, since it was the native Greeks who ousted King Constantine XII from the country and it was them who called Venizelos back. Generally, the refugees were seen as victims of the turkish atrocities and of the King's megalomania. naming them as victims of great prejudice, separation and discrimination is simply unhistorical. from the very day they arrived in Greece, they were well received by the majority of the Greek population. The Greek state, the church, the Greek Red Cross, various governmental and non-governmental organizations, as well as individuals did their best to help them and improve their conditions of living. Many of the refugees became so prominent that it would not be possible if they were victims of discrimination (e.g. Onassis, Dimitris Psathas, Archibishop Chrysanthus of Athens-who was formelly Bishop of Trapizond). The discrimination incidents shall be presented, but in the right extent and coverage, having in mind "undue weight". Hectorian 18:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Initial comments

This is an excellent start. Many small details will be naturally worked out through cooperative editing. I foresee two areas of greater contention: linguistic, and discrimination. (Hectorian, the initial author of much of this article, believes that all the refugees except the Cappadocians came speaking Greek; I think a substantial number were primarily Turkish speakers. Hectorian believes the discrimination against refugees was short-lived; I believe it lingered for decades.) But I am in no rush to "fight this out." We will work on what's good, and over time supply sources on the issues of language and discrimination. Thanks. Jd2718 18:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I am ready to discuss upon everything related to this article. Jd2718's has been very cooperative in this article, something for which i am thankful. To be 100% precise, there were also Turkish-speaking Greeks from Eastern Thrace. But it would be rather difficult to draw a line between those who were primarily Turkish-speaking, those who were using Turkish in public-out of fear that they would be persecuted-(and were considered Turkish-speaking groups by outsiders), and those who were bilinguals. Having in mind that most of the refugees came from the region of Smyrna (a predominantly Greek-speaking area) and from Pontus (where the Greek language is still spoken), i see no dispute over which was the dominant language among the refugee population. as for the discrimination, i have made my point clear. I do not dispute Jd2718's views, however, i would like to see some examples, which would justify a possible quote that discrimination lingered for decades. I can provide a few examples about isolated incidents in the first months and years. Hectorian 18:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

There was a little about discrimination of Greek refugees in Greece in Sarrinikolaou's book 'facing athens', to be honest, I think he overstates it a little bit. But if you need help with referencing, ask me.--NeroDrusus 20:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek phrases

Should Greek phrases be rendered three times: in Greek, in transliteration, and then in translation? Is there a standard across Wikipedia? As it stands, there is no transliteration for the Greek phrases in this article. Jd2718 14:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pontic Greeks

Not just in this article, but elsewhere, we use the above term. For an American reader (certainly) and perhaps for others, a parenthetical (Black Sea) would be helpful the first time they are mentioned in any article: Pontic (Black Sea) Greeks. Would this be considered offensive? Should I bring this as a proposal to Wiki Project Greece? Jd2718 17:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] refugees

This page should be moved to Greek refugees (1922) since this population movement has been the last of a series of refugees' waves since 17th century--Kalogeropoulos 08:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The quotations from your related article is against your principle of neutral point of view. This text only serves for political deeds. I would appreciate it if you could remove the intentionally used phrases.Thank you. Lucas —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tunasaylan (talk • contribs) 11:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)