Talk:Gotra

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The article seems biased towards Brahmins only. The Gotra system applies to all Hindus not only in Brahmins. As such it should be modified.

Gotra still applies to Sikhs and Muslims,even in Pakistan.

Yes, it applies to few muslims in India also. It might not be the hallmark of Hinduism but an Indian tradition.

Dear Manjunatha,

Kudos to your self-proclaimed insecurities! I don’t think any other reader and editor of this article would agree with your emotional dread that this article is getting biased. Any person with sound state of mind and with logical pieces of information can edit this article and present his contributions. And nobody will deny that the article should have a neutral point of view and each caste and / or community must get a space on it.

I took up editing of this article when I found that it had been turned to a chaotic piece of equivocalness. I don’t suppose that some contributors had devised intentions against any caste or community (say, Brahmins). However, it appeared that in the process of making the article more generalized, those contributors got bewildered and lost its eloquence and correctness. I agree that I did most of the editing since June 15, 2006. But I left those parts untouched, I was not aware of at all, e.g., about Illam or bari(bali) or about some marriage practices and gotras in south India.

I would like to re-awaken you that this article is on the topic worded as “Gotra”, which is no-doubt a Sanskrit word. "Illam" or "bari(bali)" may have the similar coneptual meaning (i.e., patrilineal or matrilineal classification and identification of families of a clan or tribe), but they are not the word ‘Gotra’. Nor is the title and pupose of the article, “Lineage system in Uzbekistan”. This Sanskrit word was first coined by Aryans and initially used by Brahmins for the pupose of classification of their community and to stop incestuous practices among them. However, later many castes and communities in (ancient) India started applying the system of lineal (in most of the cases patrilineal) classification and identification of families. I do agree that very few of them trace their lineages derived from any Vedic sage's name.

If you are well informed about the systems like "Illam" or "bari(bali)" or such systems practiced in ancient mid-east or central Asia, why don’t you share your knowledge with others? I was expecting some genuinely-informed persons to take initiative in expanding this article. I even put a note of such request at the end of the article.

I think, now in order to avoid controversy and providing space to each caste and community, we should consider the following sections: (1) Definition This section should contain the definition and application of the Sanskrit word ‘Gotra’

(2) Origin of the word “Gotra” This section should have the contents on the origin and development of the ‘gotra’ system in ancient India.

(3) Similar ancient systems in the world This section may describe all possible lineal system of classification and identification of clans/tribes in ancient world, whether it be in Uzbekistan or in Nile valley civilization of Egypt or even among Neanderthals.

(4) Gotras in caste/community ‘X” This section should elucidate the elaborate and vivid description of gotra system in a specific caste/community

(4.1) List of gotras in caste/community ‘X” This sub-section should provide the list of existing gotras in the caste/community ‘X”

(5) Gotras in caste/community ‘Y”

     (5.1) List of gotras in caste/community ‘Y”

and so on

Well, I request the Wikipedia contributors fraternity not to speculate in a skewed manner to spew venoms against any individual or his caste/community without knowing his intentions and no doubt not to politicize the scenario. --59.177.21.31 18:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)Lomash_g(59.177.xx.xxx)

This article was written long back and did have a neutral point of view after some discussions. However, now it has been changed unrecongizably. You see, I am tired of editing the same article so many times and I was hoping somebody else has the patience to do it and revert the "confident" edits of non-registered members.
But I suppose problem arises from the fact that most of the lineages are identified with the word gotra now. I mean they could have had independent origins. But because of the common purpose they serve they were also known as Gotra.
And for that matter, I left Brahmin gotras untouched and tried to give other lineage systems in India. So don't flame me as anti-brahmin. Anyway, Brahmin gotras are irrelevent for me as I do not follow that lineage. The present article I view as a propaganda because of the following reasons.
1. Repeated assertions of Brahmin creation. "Origin of gotra";
para 2: The gotra system was started originally among Brahmins as a system of classification and identification of various families and indicating common descent from a rishi.
para 3: The concept of gotra was the first attempt initially among Brahmins to classify themselves among different groups.
2. Repeated assertions that few other castes share Brahmin gotras. "Origin of gotra"
Since the word gotra also connotes the association originating from a rishi as a priest (or teacher) of a clan, a few other castes also happen to share some of the gotras of Brahmins.
Repeated in "List of gotras".

Manjunatha (9 Jul 2005)

Contents

[edit] Uncle-Niece Marriage Dispute with Raj2004

This person has removed some portions of the article on the grounds that he never heard about it. I wonder whether such behaviour is accepted. Instead he should start a discussion about it to clear the doubts or atleast give proper reasons for deleting it. Manjunatha (22 Oct 2005)

I disgree with you vehemently on uncle-niece marriages. It is not vandalism where you state a blatantly broad statement as making uncle-niece marriages acceptable.

I did. Incest is forbidden in Hindu society, as with all societies. This a general article on gotra, not on the 1% who practice incest. I agree with you that what constitutes closeness is an issue of dispute.

In Smarta brahmin communities where gotra is also passed from father to son, no uncle-niece marriage occurs. So the statement does not make sense.

Please designate what community follows this practice and write accordingly.

I agree with you about marriage between cross-cousins. Thus, a man may marry his mother's brother's daughter but not marry his father's brother's daughter. A father's brother's daughter is treated as a sister.

Raj2004 19:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Raj, with your limited knowledge you continue to show the ignorance. You don't even want to clarify the things in the first place. No,I'm not obliged to clarify anything to you who hasn't 'heard' of 'uncle-niece' marriage and thinks his knowledge is complete in whatever he has heard. The problem is, you bring your POV on incest marriage practices here and that is irrelevent in the first place. I suppose Iyers smarta Brahmins too. Check out uncle-niece marriages in the article. If you are too concerned about it then I can assure you both uncle-niece and cross-cousin marriages are losing their acceptance(the former more than the later) in South Indian society. Except for Tulu and Malayalees all other South Indian communities practiced it. Perhaps, there might be few exceptions. But the fact is it was a common feature at one time. --Manjunatha (23 Oct 2005)


Please direct your comments in a logical and coherent manner, rather than in an argumentative tone. This is an encylopedia and one should be able to defend his point of view. It appears you are defensive. Raj2004 17:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Additionally again you make a broad statement, "Except for Tulu and Malayalees all other South Indian communities practiced it." I know for certain that uncle-niece marriages do not occur in the Koota Brahmin community. Again you fall into the trap of your own POV. If uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some communities, in very large extended families, it may be possible that an uncle is 30 and a niece is 25.

Raj2004 17:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The exceptions among Brahmin community who form just 3-4% of South Indian population doesn't say much. Does it? However, I would agree there might be exceptions in non-brahmin communities also. I'm talking about the general trend here as it's applicable to Gotra since in patriarchical gotra inheritance, uncle and niece would always be of different gotras. For my 'all' to become POV then some particular caste, say all Brahmins, didn't have this system. And this was never the case. Yes, this system was not part of coastal Karnataka which is a majorly Tulu and Konkani speaking region also with Kannada Brahmin communities. These Brahmins didn't have this system(I suppose, the Koota Brahmins that you mentioned are Kota Brahmins of Kundapura). I belong to that region. By the way, if my arguments are defensive, your 'unheard' knowledge will prevail. Your logic of uncle being 30years and niece being 25 years is really illuminating. Thanks for that.

Manjunatha (24 Oct 2005)


When you deleted the parts of the article, I tried to open a discussion at your talk page. [[1]] But without any reason, you deleted that also. When I wanted to talk, you had the arrogancy(which is very evident the reason you gave for deleting those parts) to dismiss it. So I suppose my words were caustic because of that. Anyway, I apologise for being so harsh. Manjunatha (24 Oct 2005)

No problem. When I mean Kota, yes I mean Kota Brahmins. Thanks. I didn't mean to be arrogant but I don't think you should characterize a trend in some communities to be a general trend.

Raj2004 10:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Saptarishis

Somebody, excluded Vishwamitra from list of Saptarishis and added Agastya instead. Come on, give the chap his due for all the trouble he had taken to achieve that position. I suppose even when Brahma accepted him as a Brahmrshi during that time, people, please don't be so unfair in this supposed to be liberal and rational era.

Also, there are many views that Vasishta and Agastya might have had non-brahmin origins. However, I don't question Vasishta's claim to be a true-brahmin because of his deeds(Vishwamitra would vouch for that). But I suppose the controversy must be refelcted in the article. --Manjunatha (22 Oct 2005)

Actually, Vishwamitra was NOT a Saptarishi - I was the one who made the edit (though Agastya is not my work). He was a Bramha Rishi, but not a Saptarishi. The Saptarishis are Atri, Brighu, Kutsya, Vasishta, Gautama, Kashyapa and Angirasa. Remember your Sandya Vandanam?

I think the smart thing to do is to just leave it as "eight Rishis", and mention the Saptarishis as being difficult to enumerate, as I've done now. --shash 08:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

We can keep discussion of Saptarishis in the Saptarishi page, I think... Modified for that purpose. shash 13:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] How many gotras are there?

The article is good and discussion has good material on 'Uncle - Niece'. Can anyone tell how many gotras are there? My guess is that it should be 70 odd.

Ganesh Nayak U 14:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ON INCEST AND GOTRAS

In south india uncle neice marriage is not comnsidered to be incest as south indians give pinda only to their fathers.thus it does not fall into this category of sapinda.GOTRA NOT ONLY BELONGS TO BRAHMINS BUT TO ALL THE FOUR VARNAS.IF UR IGNORANT SHUT UP!

[edit] POV points

Malayalee and Tulu population have their own gotra systems called "illam" or "bari(bali)" respectively. Here the lineage is passed from mother to children. None of these lineages are derived from any sage's name. I believe, matrilineal system is considered one of the most ancient systems. Therefore, gotra is started by Brahmins and intended by the "Aryans" to stop incest marriages are purely speculative. And this lineage system is not very unique to Indians too. Many tribes that migrated from Central Asia to India at various points of time could have carried this system inspite of Hinduism. I suppose, Uzbeks also have a lineage system.

Manjunatha (7 Jul 2006)