Talk:Gothic metal
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[edit] Archives
For previous discussion, please see:
[edit] Darkwave
Should't darkwave be included as an origin? I think yes, bacause bands like "Dead can dance" and "Joy division", which have influenced the goth metal acts, were part of the movement but not goth rock themselves. Xr 1 (talk) 11:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- I believe the stylistic origin is supposed to be about the ancestral lineage of the genre as a whole rather than the varied influences on the bands in the genre. Otherwise, we would include Jazz as a stylistic origin of heavy metal music since Black Sabbath, among other metal bands, have been influenced by that genre. Likewise, there are many gothic metal bands that have been influenced by classical or symphonic music but that's not a stylistic origin for the genre as a whole either. --Bardin (talk) 11:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Music
People, there are many uses for the term "gothic" and I think we are confusing them.
Metal is NOT gothic MUSIC. Gothic Metal may be a dark type of metal, thus the name "gothic", but it has absolutely NO influence form gothic ROCK, aside from being melancholy.
I hope I made myself clear? the lyrics are dark and their aesthetics are too, that's why it appeals to goths, but the music is in no way related to gothic rock. For example, gothic metal is as gothic as Evanescence. They have the aesthetics and lyrics, but it is not influenced by gothic rock (Evanescence is something like Gothic Alternative Rock).
I hope we can stay objective and forget what "goths" like or don't like, the lyrics and looks, and just think about the MUSIC for a change.
The only true gothic metal bands that are influenced by gothic rock are Fields of the Nephilim, Lacrimosa, Tristania and, to a certain extent, Inkubus Sukubbus.
Another thing, in the article it mentions bands such as The 69 Eyes, HIM and Evanescence.. is it implying that these bands are metal? because that is wrong as well.
--Winterbat (talk) 21:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- First, Fields of The Nephilim is absolutely not a "true gothic metal band", this is one the original gothic rock band. Plus no offence but you're contradicting yourself : you're saying "Gothic metal absolutely takes no influence from gothic rock" but at the same time you're saying "some gothic metal takes influences from gothic rock?" That's quite paradoxical at least in the way you word it. Anyway I think I know what you mean. Actually you meant that gothic metal doesn't particulary capture Gothic rock's distinctive sound however some gothic bands are influenced by gothic rock anyway, even though they don't necessarilly capture their sound. I somehow agree since original gothic takes mostly his sound from doom metal. However some bands including late-Paradise lost clearly borrow some of the distinctive sound of gothic rock and some of Moonspell's atmospheres in albums like irreligious are clearly reminiscent of the occult soundscapes of Fields of the Nephilim. Furthermore You'll note that many gothic metal bands heavily borrow ethereal atmospheres from ethereal wave and gothic neoclassical music( both are subgenres of Darkwave. now DW is associated with original gothic culture)
- Anyway concerning your general comments: while I agree there are many confusion concerning the gothic word, I think you didn't realized that the problem here is far more complicated than that. Because it's not just a matter of confusion but a matter of sources that legitimate such confusion.And in wikipedia source is the law, no matter what the truth may be... That's as simple as that.
- The main editor of this article provided sources(in perfect accordance with wikipedia's rules) to justify his claims. So what do you want to do? Actually he's dealing with the broader and more popular sense of the term gothic metal. While purists would consider only original bands like Tristania, Paradise Lost or Theatre of Tragedy as gothic metal, folk's use extended the sense of this term. So purists(including me) may disagree with this editor on certain points including HIM, Evanescence, the 69 eyes...but let's face it: serious music specialists like musicologists haven't worked on thsi genre yet. So you are left with reviewers, journalists (with all their limitations and approximation in terms of musicological precision) as sole "reliable" sources. So no wonder the definition is confused. But that's the way it is. This main editor is not confused himself, he's just applying the wikipedia rules strictly in a inescapable logic.
- Yes, this situation is quite frustrating at the end, because in this large view gothic metal seems to be in the end some kind of melting pot of various music that have but nothing (or barely) in common. But let's face it: Just like many popular music gothic metal genre hasn't really been theorized properly by music specialists.Everybody uses the term for anything. So there are barely sources that can correct the confusions and amalgams. Hence the large extention of the term gothic in folk's use that purists may find crazy. But that's the way it is. Got to cope with general misuse of this term, I guess...Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 23:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Do you know what the sad thing is? There are more sources on Evanescence and HIM being goth metal than there are for bands like The Sins of Thy Beloved, Tristania or even Theatre of Tragedy. I had such an easy time finding references for the stuff on Evanescence and HIM but it was so damn difficult for me to find much sourced info that I can use for the Norwegian contingent. I could not even give Tristania an entire paragraph for themselves like I did for all the other bands discussed. I got into goth metal myself through this Norwegian trio and so I really found it disappointing to see so little mention of them online, especially the ever so unique TSOTB.
- Anyway, I do not really think you need bother making such a long reply to someone who has not even made a single contribution on wikipedia other than to complain above about what gothic music is or is not. It's no big secret that there are many goths out there who can't stand anything metal and vice versa. Nothing new there. Except for Inkubus Sukkubus being a metal band. --Bardin (talk) 02:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me for not making any contributions to wikipedia, I didn't know it was a requirement to give my opinion about something. Wikipedia is the number one source for information, I just wanted it to be as true as possible since many people get confused regarding genres. Thanks to Frederick who pointed out the need for sources and why it can not be changed. I do like metal by the way, I didn't attack the genre, I was just stating that some bands just didn't get their sound from rock. As I said before (but it seems you failed to notice), it doesn't matter what goths like or not, the music is what matters. About Inkubus Sukkubus, it is not a metal band, it's a gothic rock band with certain characteristics that resemble metal (mainly the way the guitar sounds).--Winterbat (talk) 23:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Metal in general is not gothic music. And some goths may not accept gothic metal as part of their scene. But the truth is that (especially the first) gothic metal groups were actually inspired by the 80s goth rock and darkwave movement.So this (and the album "Gothic" by Paradise Lost ) gave name to this type of music. I do not see anything wrong with it ... Xr 1 (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] I propose
I propose a complete rewrite or revamp for this article. As it is, its a complete mess. Its poorly written, jumps around far too much, and contains inaccurate information, such as the inclusion of bands such as HIM and Evanescence as "Gothic metal".
I would do so myself, but I don't have the time to undertake such a project and also lack the skill to create an article of the required caliber. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizmonicgamer (talk • contribs) 05:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
This article is absolutely terrible and inconsistent, and NEEDS to be rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizmonicgamer (talk • contribs) 18:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Problems with the article
Yeah... The article is very inaccurate, at best. I corrected the release year of My Dying Bride's Symphonaire Infernus et Spera Empyrium, and removed the false thingie about their violinist joining for the second album... Couldn't squeeze the violin-aspect in their music there though, but it comes up bit later.
Then I noticed some false information about Nightwish... Eh... Wrong release years etc. Having dates and other basic, easy stuff like that wrong doesn't exactly increase the credibility of the article...
And the article is very debatable even by the things it's saying...
Cursarion (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
- The release year of MDB's first EP is given as 1992 on various places including the cited review on CoC, the bio on Rockdetector and even the wikipedia article on that EP. Other sources give it as 1991 and since that's what the official website of the band states, I've left it as such. The band's official website also specify that the violinist joined them prior to their second album: "MDB recruited long time session musician and classically trained violin and piano player Martin Powell as a full time member. Writing then begun in earnest for their second album Turn Loose The Swans, released in 1993." No idea why you would think that is a false information. --Bardin (talk) 02:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
