Talk:Gospel harmony

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[edit] V, OR, POV

These seems like OR to me, what is the source? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is entirely inappropriate as is. As stated in the lead, it is simply Carlaude's guesswork being published here for the first time. And while we are on the topic, I've noticed succession boxes being added to the bottom of articles claiming some gospel events/topics occur before or after others. (but that's another issue) Back to this article though, the lead needs an entire re-write to avoid self-references. This article also lacks any citations. The article is also not in an encyclopedic format. It isn't simply describing, in an encyclopedic fashion, the historical appearance of gospel harmonies, such as the Diatessaron, or the contemporary phenomena. From what I can gather, this article tries to present a unique synthesis, which is strictly forbidden here on Wikipedia. I'm also concerned that this content, in this tabular format, may not be appropriate for an encyclopedia, but instead maybe wikisource or wikibook. Taking another look at this article, though, it seems a bit more like a gospel parallel than a harmony. I still don't know how we can overcome the original research issue though. Is there any way this article can be salvaged? -Andrew c [talk] 22:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
It's also redundant with the chronology article. I wouldn't recommend salvaging it, just merge any reasonable additions (like the verse citations) to the hatnoted article and turn this into a redirect page or write an article on harmony in gospel music.Somedumbyankee (talk) 01:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Does it qualify for speedy deletion? Slrubenstein | Talk 09:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It's sort of hard to say, because it is "cited" in that it has links to the biblical text. I'll drop a question at WP:Christianity and see if they have an opinion there. A quick google search on the name shows a similar table at this site: [1], so it may and/or may not be OR.Somedumbyankee (talk) 09:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
If other users believe a table such as this would be useful, I would support it's inclusion (under 3 conditions). First, we remove any "guesswork". Next, we add sources so that the article is verifiable. Finally, we rename the article Gospel parallels, or even Table of Gospel parallels, and remove the "chronology" element. There simply is not a single order of all NT events. Due to NPOV, we cannot say one event occurred before or after another event, if there is scholarly disagreement. I don't see how a NPOV table would work, if we have scholar X saying Jesus upset the money changers at the beginning of his minstry, and we have scholar Y saying Jesus did it at the end. We would have no guideline as to where to place this event on the table when scholars conflict, and choosing sides would be pushing a POV. I believe the chronology issue should stay in that article. That said, I could see an encyclopedic article about the topic of Gospel Harmonies, (because they are there own notable phenomena) as long as we don't present our own original harmony. I'm just trying to brainstorm a way to salvage this table (needs sourcing, guesswork removed, and rescoped as a parallel, not a harmony).-Andrew c [talk] 12:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
The phrase "gospel harmony" was used to describe several works in the early Christian era, so I can see that there would be good reason to have an article with this title to describe those works. Having said that, the content of this article as it stands does seem redundant, and I have no objections to mergeing the content as proposed. John Carter (talk) 15:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I have no objection to a merge though I defer to someone more knowledgable about this material than I to do it. My main concerns remain clear compliance with WP:V and WP:SYNTH. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I have add references and corrections to resovle any WP:V and WP:SYNTH issues. The basic outline comes from a work in the public domain. Individual event placement (for those events not in canon order) comes from the agreement of more than one published harmony.
I have no objection to a merge per say but think how to do it may be tricky at best and harder to verify since the articles have two different focuses. Chronology of Jesus is dealing more with placement in terms of calendar dates and this is more of placement of events with each other. For example, Chronology of Jesus lists multible possible birth years, (without footnotes) and the harmony would be very messy to list-- say-- all the nativity events, or even just the one-- 4 or 5 times. Maybe there can be just one pointer to a centralized summary of the debate on such a topic.--Carlaude (talk) 15:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Having heard the rest of the discussion, I don't see a problem with keeping this as a separate article with the following restrictons:
  1. Any harmony listed is directly cited to a notable author WP:V
  2. The harmony listed is clearly noted to be an example, not an authoritative ordering of events WP:NPOV. Leaving it notably incomplete, such as only having the section on the nativity, would further reinforce the concept that it is an encyclopedia article about Gospel Harmonies and not a harmony in itself.
  3. Having a separate article about a specific (notable) harmony and the qualifications, possible bias, and history of its author would be a better way to present a full list, this article should really only explain the concept in general. Somedumbyankee (talk) 20:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The subject the order of gospels events and attempts to or harmonize them is a very notable subject. I do not follow what you are asking for in #2 above. Maybe an example would help make your point.

Having a separate article about a specific harmony would not be a way to present a full list, since that would not be fair use to have an entire table of the harmony-- the table would be a copyright violation.

I also personally do not see any specific harmony being notable subject on its own-- except maybe an ancient one for historic reasons. They are just a common reference tools that do not vary that much from one another to make any one of them that important. It would be like trying to find a specific "Bad Speller's Dictionary" (a list of easily misspelled words) that is notable. --Carlaude (talk) 22:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Andrew_c's comments pretty much contradict yours on how much the harmonies agree. Since it appears there is some POV put into each construct, I don't see any way to follow WP:NPOV, and we're definitely not going into authoritatively resolving disagreements between Paul's lawyer and some of his boss's old friends. In short, a full harmony would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Explaining what a Gospel Harmony is sounds like a reasonable topic for an encyclopedia, but providing any particular interpretation is beyond the scope unless the article is about the particular interpretation.Somedumbyankee (talk) 02:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I share Somedumbyankee's concerns. Carlaude, thank you for adding the references - this does indeed take care of my concerns about V and I appreciate your adding them. Now, can we lay out the POV/NPOV issues and deal with them? Slrubenstein | Talk 10:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Andrew c stated that "There simply is not a single order of all NT events" but this does article not claim to be the single order of all NT events. It does not violate NPOV if it is not advacning any particular view.

For example, we can just note that some scholar indicate the consider Jesus upset the money changers at the beginning of his minstry, and others at end of his minstry, and others at both times-- (with the table showing it at both times).

If anyone does have POV/NPOV issues-- as Slrubenstein says-- I am glad to lay them out and and deal with them. --Carlaude (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Carlaude, this is not what the article says. the article states that "Gospel Harmony describes attempts to merge or harmonize the Christian canonical gospels into a single gospel account" - this is necessarily a synthesis and a point of view. The article then says that what follows is one example of a Gospel Harmony. Now, even if the article provided three examples, it would be representing three points of view and according to our NPOV policy each view would have to be identified and contextualized. But the introduction says this is only ONE possible GH, which means only ONE POV is being represented. This violates NPOV! I propose one possibl solution: just as the article on the Biblical Canon provides the Jewish, Catholic, and protestant canons - three points of view, each properly identified - this article could provide two, three, four or more examples of Gospel harmonies - and properly identify each one (whose view, whose merging or harmonizing, to paraphrase the article's definition, is represented in each example). Right now elements of it are linked to sources, so it complies with WP:V. But it is not clear to me who came up with this example. If a Wikipedia editor did, it still violates SP:SYNTH and thus NOR and NPOV! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Good point. I was thinking of the comment just before the table-- (...is an example of a harmony...), but the intro should be fixed. WP:POV does not required a complete harmony for each POV. Each view can be "presented fairly" within a one table and thus "various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader." --Carlaude (talk) 18:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Important chronological marker missing: Census of Quirinius

Should be in the article somewhere. 75.15.201.172 (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, Luke 3:1-2 "15th year of Tiberius". 75.15.201.172 (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Those I have read do not agree that Luke 3 is talking about the Census of Quirinius from 6 AD.--Carlaude (talk) 19:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

So if someone wants to merge this the talk page should have a merge section.

It seem that people are willing to merge but no one (so far) wants to do it themselves.--Carlaude (talk) 14:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NIV

An editor claimed "default translation should not be NIV, let the reader pick which translation to use, in the spirit of NPOV)"

The reader easily can pick any translation they want from the biblegateway site-- more easily than if you do not even give a default translation. Again, POV requieres "various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader" and this does.

But if refusing a to allow a default translation was some how not NPOV then wikipedia code could and would just not support any given default translation.

I totally object to not having some default translation-- it does not have to be NIV if we want to debate a new one but lacking any default translation is a bad idea and unprofessional. --Carlaude (talk) 19:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

In what sense is it "professional" to make the NIV or any particular translation the default translation? The obvious neutral solution is to allow the user to select which translation he or she wants, as for example: Gen 1:1. To force a particular translation, whether it be the NIV or the NRSV or the NAB or the KJV or the NKJV is simply POV pushing. 75.0.4.52 (talk) 19:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Why don't we just make this a disambiguation to the Gospel harmony in every possible translation?
See above.
The obvious neutral solution is to allow the user to see any good notable translation with just one click that still allows them select which other English translation he or she wants with the pop-up menu.
Also using a no-default-translation code does not return the verse at all. It just returns a list of all possible translations -- many if not most of which are not WP:notable to the English Wikipedia since they are not in English! This would also be very tedious if anyone want to look and many passages!
Read WP:IAR -- If a "rule" prevents you from improving Wikipedia, ignore it. --Carlaude (talk) 19:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
What you are calling an "improvement", namely forcing the evangelical NIV translation or forcing only translations found at biblegateway (which doesn't include NRSV or NAB for example), is only an "improvement" if your goal is POV pushing. 75.0.4.52 (talk) 20:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, regarding your claim that a reading of WP:IAR allows one to ignore Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

"Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. Because the policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these policies are based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to improve the application and explanation of the principles." 75.0.4.52 (talk) 20:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk about having a POV to push.

Again, NPOV requiers "various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader" and the Biblegateway does this. It does not have all the translations I like either.

If folks feel that is NIV is too "evangelical," the English Standard Version, Contemporary English Version, NRSV, or Today's New International Version are all fine with me. The New American Bible does not display in text paragraph form-- only the artificial "verse by verse." I mainly do not want a "no-default." --Carlaude (talk) 22:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chapter Number / Verse Numbers

The "sortable table" will not work as well if they are added without leading zeros.

  • Use "Matthew|08:01-10"
  • Not "Matthew|8:1-10"--Carlaude (talk) 19:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)