Talk:Godhead (Latter Day Saints)

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Contents 1 Book of Mormon statement 2 God Head information innacurate 3 Mormon use of the word "Jehovah" 4 Article Not Neutral 5 Heavenly Mother 6 Jesus = Jehovah

[edit] Book of Mormon statement

I deleted the following statement:

:(in particular the original 1830 edition) 

The current version of the Book of Mormon is closer than the 1830 edition to the reference made. -Visorstuff 18:16, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] God Head information innacurate

Considering Joseph Smith never said anything about believing in "the trinity" that Catholics and other Christian denominations accept, this article is chalk full of misinformation. Trinity means only 3 people, while many misunderstand that to mean 3 in 1! I would like to see evidence that Joseph Smith taught that. He only taught that they were ONE IN PURPOSE! The salvation of all mankind! I am sorry to say, but while I don't agree that everyone should agree with the beliefs of the LDS church, I feel most of the articles on Wikipedia relating to 'mormons' are HORRIBLY inaccurate, and should be revised, unfortunately that would be such a high volume job, it may be better to start from scratch. Wikipedia, while an open source database, should have reliable sources, and should not seek historical information in anti-mormon documents, as they prove to be innacurate. This is not only apparent in the Mormon articles, but in 7th day adventist and Jehovas witness documents as well. If you would like to read the real beliefs of the LDS church, concerning the Godhead, please visit www.lds.org or www.mormon.org . Who better to ask about Mormon beliefs, than an actual Mormon!?

The section in question was written by Mormons - and about the broader Latter Day Saint movement, not just the LDS Church. Please note that when Joseph Smith left the sacred grove that he didn't know everything about the church. Some things evolved over time as new revelation was given and doctrine was clarified. For example, Smith may have assumed that everyone realized that God and Jesus were seperate people and didn't clarify until the Kirtland period. In fact, there is evidence that he didn't teach certain things as he felt that the people would reject all of his teachings if he did. Some did leave over this issue in the kirtland period and are still part of the Latter Day Saint Movement (not LDS church) This article does a good job with the latest scholarly research available. I'm sorry that youfeel this page is so inaccurate, but from a historical view it is quite solid. -Visorstuff 23:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

These are well stated points, and I think the confusion is a lack of communication on my part. While Joseph Smith did teach different, deeper things, when the time was right, what's to be said for the fact that the article implies that he changed the doctrine, while any member of the Church of Jesus Christ knows that the nature of the God head is Eternal, and has never changed. I can see your point, but the section seems to imply that Joseph Smith changed doctrine, which he didn't. When you say this was written by Mormons, are you saying members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints, or another church that broke off from it? Visorstuff, thanks for all of you work on wikipedia, I truly admire it seeing as there are so many articles out there!

Ahh, yes. By Mormons, in this instance, I do mean members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I can see how you'd read that section in this way. Perhaps we can clarify - what do you suggest? It is not that the doctrines changed, but rather, that what Smith emphasized changed. What is and what is not church doctrine is a fuzzy thing and, as you likely know, has always been the case. Many things that church members believe to be "doctrine" is not, but cultural doctrines promulgated by church members. In any case, the teachings of Smith and what he emphasized are fuzzy enough that many people thought his earlier teachings were more accurate, or that he changed doctrines, or that the current church misunderstood his teachings on many matters. We have to balance this to be historically accurate, with what is believed and taught today. Not an easy task. I'm open to suggestions in how to change wording. Let's discus here and then make the changes. Suggestions? Also, I'd invite you to join wikipedia. We always need newcomers. Registration is easy! -Visorstuff 00:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Some possible solutions may include stating that the Godhead according to 'mormonism' has common elements with the aforementioned ideologies. Also, another solution would to briefly summarize what you have stated above, and to respect the beliefs of the factions of the Church of Jesus Chris of Latter day Saints, you could say that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints believe that while Smith revealed different things over time, he was merely revealing new aspect of the Godhead that the members of the church were ready to learn, and never erased what he had already taught, but added. This point would also help in emphasizing modern revelation.

[edit] Mormon use of the word "Jehovah"

The Elohim article mentions that Mormons use the terms "Jehovah" and "Yahweh" in a unique way, and refers to this article (Godhead (Mormonism)) for details.

I'm surprised that none of these terms ( Elohim, Jehovah, Yahweh ) are mentioned here, much less described in detail.

On the other hand, I hate to stir up an edit war over picky dictionary definitions.

- I would like far more to be said on this issue. The connections between LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses become clearer on these doctrinal points, especially if the Temple Ritual could at least be aluded to in its cosmology which extends beyond the Book of the Mormon.

[edit] Article Not Neutral

This article does not seem very well balanced to me. It seems oriented toward Mormons, not to the general public.

Examples:

The scripture quoted at the beginning (Matthew 3:16) serves no purpose in explaining what Mormons believe.

The quote from the Articles of Faith (also near the beginning) supposedly "states the essence of Latter Day Saint belief concerning the Godhead." That statement doesn't help me understand the essence of the Godhead at all. This whole section seems dedicated to making Mormon beliefs appear similar to Trinitarian beliefs.

The references to "D&C 76:12-24","Ether 3", etc. are cryptic and obviously aimed toward Mormons, or someone with a copy of the Book of Mormon in front of them.

"Most modern Latter Day Saints do not accept the idea of a two-"personage" Godhead, with the Father as a spirit and the Holy Spirit as the shared "mind" of the Father and the Son." This paragraph (if it could be called that) doesn't relate to the material around it, and seems like an obvious ploy to downplay alternative views. If most modern Latter Day Saints don't accept this idea, why put it in? If they do, why downplay it, unless you are giving a Mormon point of view?

In conclusion, most of this article reads like a tract, or like an explanation of Mormon beliefs put out by the Mormon church. The parts that don't read like a tract still tend to have a Mormon spin on them. I think this article needs to be re-written and cleaned up to make it acceptable for Wikipedia. Sherlock (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Great comments; I think that I have taken care of the issues you cite. I agree that the article could do with some improvement. The purpose of the article is to explain Latter Day Saint perceptions of the Godhead. It is quite clear that it is their beliefs and it is not presented as "truth". The allegation of neutrality seems weak. Though I agree the article is not well written and can be cleaned up, neutrality does not seem to be its major or even a significant flaw.

I suspect you are seeking an article that juxtaposes the LDS view of the Godhead with the doctrines of other Christian churches; that is not the purpose of this article. I think that would be found in Mormonism and Christianity, which is linked in the article. IMHO, there are too many articles on the LDS church and too many of them simply repeat the same information found in other articles. I would hope that this one does not evolve into another article that continues this repetition. Also, the article addresses the Latter Day Saint movement's beliefs, which are varied. The Latter-day Saint view, though by far the largest group within the movement, does not stand alone. Thanks for your review and comments; they were helpful. thoughts? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 00:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the article looks quite a bit better now, especially the introduction section, which was what I was most concerned with. Perhaps my original post was a little critical. I understand, after reading some other religion articles, that it is necessary to have quotes or citations of religious texts. The article could still stand to be cleaned up here and there, but it looks a lot better than it did. Sherlock (talk) 22:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heavenly Mother

This article seems to contradict itself. It says that a Heavenly Mother both is and is not an official doctrine of the church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.201.149.23 (talk) 21:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the redundant statement, but there is some additional work that needs to be done. The LDS church has stated there are Heavenly parents, which is official doctrine because it is stated in an official proclamation of the LDS church. However, that position is not accepted by other churches within the Latter Day Saint movment.

One would say that within LDS theology a Heavenly Mother exists, there is very little know beyond that point. No prophet or other leader has expanded much beyond the position. It is safe to say that it is not a core (one that is emphasized) teaching of the church relative to core doctrines like Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, performed miracles, sacrificed himself and was crucified for our sins, rose the third day, returned to his Father in Heaven, and will return again to the earth one day; that faith, repenteance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands; that the church of Jesus Christ has been restored upon the earth with twelve apostles and a prophet that lead the follower of Christ today are all considered core doctrines and teachings of the church. Does that make sense? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 22:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus = Jehovah

StormRider you put a fact tag on this. I merely copied the statement from elsewhere in the article - I thought it was a well-known piece of LDS doctrine. Are you saying that it isn't? DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

No, although it would be easy to support. This is a doctrine that is taught in scripture and in the writings of LDS theologians explaining scripture. The tag was actually just for the position of traditional Christianity. One of the difficulties of writing for the traditional position is that it is not uniform or monolithic. As you know there are differences amongst the respective members/churches. I don't recall reading anything that would make me think there is a distinct difference among them in regards to this issue, but I can't speak for all of them. This was more a simple request for let's document this position. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 19:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I did realise as I wrote this that it was an oversimplification of the orthodox position, since Jesus both is the Son of the Father and is the Father. However, forgetting for the moment that the three persons of the Trinity are in fact one, it is certainly the normal Christian view that the Father to whom Jesus talks is God the Father, and also Yahweh, the God of the Jews. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This ability to define difference in one being is what is interesting about the doctrine of the Trinity; however, that is outside of this topic. I think it would help to reference it so that interested readers could pursue it further. It does sound interesting and I personally would like to read how theologians define the differences between God the Father and God the Son and when one was interacting directly with humanity and when the other became operative.

LDS believe that God the Father does interact with humanity; however, the major role has always been played the Son. Jesus is the intermediary almost always. I should probably add references to the LDS position also. Cheers. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 18:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)