Talk:Gerundive
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[edit] English gerundive?
I was always told (in an attempt to make me understand the Latin gerundive form) that there is at least one English gerundive: the word "Reverend", as applied to Scottish Presbyterian ministers.
JohnBrand 16:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)JohnBrand
- One could argue that Reverend resembles a Latin gerundive in terms of meaning, but that doesn't make it an English gerundive. —RuakhTALK 16:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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- From the article: "Not every language has gerundives; for example, English does not." I disagree that English does not have gerundives. Verbal adjectives are gerundives, and verbal adjectives are part of the English language. Take the sentence, "I like flying planes." "Flying" can be either a gerund or a gerundive (verbal adjective) in that sentence depending on the meaning of the sentence. B 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- Ruakh should declare his American Jewish roots, which disable his NPOV on the grounds that he appears to share the American cultural dislike of titles (cf their grammatical refusal to capitalise the titles of royalty). An American of Israeli affiliation is not therefore well-qualified to debate a long-established usage within the Scottish Kirk and other Protestant churches: I would doubt if he has ever even set foot in one, quite apart from having studied and been involved in one? At least I can say that I last discussed a theological point with the President of the Jewish congregation of the nation I live in six weeks ago, for all that I'm Protestant!
- His argument that not all verbal adjectives are gerundives can also be inverted to say that some are, and in this case the construct was clearly meant in the gerundive sense of "Worthy of worship". Furthermore, he appears to suggest that it is an artificial construction based on a Latin precedent. This may at best be used as an argument for tautology, because English specifically and deliberately has no rules forbidding artificial construction of words, it is in fact actively promoted on websites like the BBC News Magazine's, where a neologism "flexicon" has been coined to classify exactly such activities. In refutation of the tautology, however, the word has subsequently acquired professional overtones which add to the gerundive capacity in a more abstract manner, implying authority, which is a distinctively different class of gerundive. Similarly, "Protestant" is now more than a statement of faith, it is a creed and as such has moved beyond the gerund into the gerundive, similarly suggesting a quality of virtue. In this respect, the nominal use of a number of religious adjectives (such as "Catholic" and "Jewish", amongst others) has also moved beyond the adjectival into this form of the gerundive.
I'll admit I'm no expert, but I was told in High School that gerundives do exist in English, for example "Swimming pool", the "Swimming" is a verbal adjective, ie:gerundive. Is this incorrect?
Phenie 20:43, 16 May 2007 (GMT+2)
- I would say that "swimming" is a gerund, and "swimming pool" is a combined noun, like "fish pond" or "shipping lane". Gingekerr 18:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have heard gerundive used to mean verbal adjective (taking it as a blend of gerund and adjective), but firstly, that's not standard terminology, and secondly, that's not what's happening in your example. In your example, swimming is a gerund being used attributively; "swimming pool" means "pool for swimming". —RuakhTALK 18:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
- But it does not mean "pool which is swimming" which would be the participle use of the word. A gerundive is simply a gerund used as an adjective. Saying it is a "pool for swimming" does not change this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.251.236 (talk)
[edit] Disputed
I think the time has come to take another look at the article and determine what facts, if any, are still under dispute. Discussions at /Archive 1 might be relevant for this, to the extent that we can sort through them. :-) —RuakhTALK 18:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
- The Archive discussions contribute little. Perhaps the argumentative should care to either expose their arguments or withdraw their complaints.
[edit] Spanish gerundive??
Greetings. I have edited the bit with reference to the Spanish language. There is no gerundive in Spanish; the only verbal adjetive in that language is the (past) participle. The example of the previous version is of course a gerund.
I will also correct the gerund entry, that has a cross reference to this article.
I have the feeling that the reference to a French gerundive may also be incorrect, precisely for the main reasons alluded in the Spanish case, but I can't assure that, so I'll leave it. Pallida Mors 13:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Esperanto gerundive
Do we really need an invented language here? The artificiality of the language makes this a circular argument, and contributes nothing to the debate other than the promotion of an artefact, you could use Klingon or Quenya with as much (or little) justification. In any case, it's functionally a gerund, whatever the Esperanto world cares to call it.
