Talk:German phonology

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Archives

February 2004 to July 2007

Contents 1 Phoneme /r/ 2 The archive 3 Question 4 "er" at the end of words? 5 Who had that idea of Kuhchen?

[edit] Phoneme /r/

I think that I've heard some uvular r's in German. Are they standard and, if so, how are they used? -- Djinn112 22:18, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

German 'r' is an uvular r when initial, and pronounced as a vowel, [ɐ], otherwise. Reading the article makes me suspect it's based on the Bühnenaussprache, a 19th-century pronunciation standard that is no longer being followed (I hope). Today's Standard German is quite different and I'm not even going to try describing it in SAMPA. What's wrong with IPA, anyway? Prumpf 22:56, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This is wrong. The most common form in (Northern) Germany is a uvular fricative or approximant. A uvular trill is also occasionally used, even more frequently on TV. These are also described in Duden's "Aussprachewörterbuch" (4. ed., 2000, p. 53f.) as the most frequent forms (well, not the approximant). I would not accept an alveolar trill as standard pronunciation, but Bavarians will certainly object.

Not only Bavarians - Austrians too... As you said, the uvular r is the most common form in Northern Germany. In fact, in Austria the alveolar trill is considered to be standard. IMO the "free allophones" solution is the best you can offer. Kubusj 19:41, 12 Feb 2006 (UTC)

I am an Austrian and never use the alveolar trill. Until recently I didn't even know how to articulate it. I'd say it's acceptable in standard Austrian German – some TV and radio journalists use it –, but it's a distinctive feature of a few dialects, not including mine.

David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 17:23 CET | 2006/11/11

Out of interest: Where do you come from exactly? I've heared uvular r from speakers from Graz, Linz, and especially from Viennese people (besides from people from Tyrol and Vorarlberg). But my family uses an alveolar trill exclusively. Qubux 00:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Linz. Moved to Vienna at age 11; there are people left in Vienna who use [r], but not many. I can't remember having encountered any in Linz. Where are you from then? David Marjanović 00:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, I have encountered alveolar [r] users in Vienna. Furthermore, [r] is considered mandatory in expressions like Rapid is meine Religion, together with the pharyngealized Meidlinger L. :o) David Marjanović 17:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently Duden now considers [ɐ] in syllable rhymes standard (according to my phonetics lecturer - I haven't read it myself, though this symbol is used as such in my Oxford-Duden bilingual dictionary). Hairy Dude 02:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

There is a wide range of regional allophony in the pronunciation of standard German /r/. In most varieties of standard German spoken in Germany, the allophonic [ɐ] may be common, but this article is not Germany phonology, but German phonology. So I think the current article text does not need any change: [r], [ʁ] and [ʀ] are free allophones of each other. [r] is used only in Southern varieties. In the syllable coda, the allophone [ɐ] is used in many varieties, except in the South-West. ― j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 11:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not think they should be called "allophones". This would imply that /r/ is pronounced one way in some contexts and another in other contexts. But I don't know of anyone who uses more than one rhotic consonant (at the very least while speaking the same lect). Most people who use one rhotic can't even pronounce the others. They are regional variants, I'd say, not allophones.

David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 17:26 CET | 2006/11/11

I should say it is even more complicated. I know of few regions where the oldest generation of rural speakers consistently use uvular r, whereas there are, to my knowledge, no towns of any significant size in Germany where a majority of young speakers have alveolar r. Alveolar r is receding rapidly and has been so for some generations. Outside Bavaria, speakers under 50 seldom have it, but it is still a majority feature in many parts of rural Bavaria and it can be heard from many middle-aged speakers in the rural parts of South and Central Hessen, the Palatinate and along the North Sea Coast. --129.35.231.2 14:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Baltic Sea Coast too. The only non-Bavarian I've ever met with an alveolar r was from East Prussia. User:Angr 17:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the alveolar r's from Hessen/Palatinate are Franconian in origin, whereas the rolled alveolar r on the North (and Baltic, for that matter) Sea coasts stem from Low German, and are encountered on Low German native speakers speaking Standard German. On the other hand, I'd say [ˈvʏɐ̯də] for "Würde" is definitely dialectal, from Westphalia to Hamburg. (In Mecklenburg, the r even becomes [ɜ]. I haven't the latest Ausspracheduden at hands, but according to my Sprecherziehung lessons, it is pronounced [ˈvʏʁdə] (old stage pronounciation even [ˈvʏʀdə]). [ʀ] sounds exaggerated and is rather used to portrait mannerist stage speech, whereas [ʁ] is considered standard, except at a word's end after a vocal, where it becomes [ɐ], so Werder [ˈvɛʀdəɐ̯].-- megA 16:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I live in Berlin and have met Germans from all over Germany, and the only people I've ever head actually pronounce a consonantal r in coda position are TV news readers and stage actors. [ˈvʏɐ̯də] isn't dialectal, it's completely normal -- standard in the descriptive sense even though it's not the prescriptive standard. —Angr 19:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, is this article about colloquial consonant reduction or correct pronounciation? Wouldn't you concede news readers to use official Standard pronunciation? It may be common in some parts of Germany (mostly the North), but it's definitely not Standard German to pronounce it [ˈvʏɐ̯də]. Same thing as if you say, in English, "innernational" vs. "international". (too lazy right now to use IPA, but you get the idea) The first one may be common, but the second one is correct. -- megA 21:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This article, like all serious work in linguistics, is descriptive, not prescriptive. If only very speech-conscious people pronounce the "r" in Würde, then it's artificial. We're interested in how people actually speak when they're not thinking about their pronunciation. —Angr 06:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I fixed your problem, David. Some n00b linguist used "free allophone" in place of "free variation" RedRoot 21:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The archive

There's nothing wrong with archiving. But the archive of this page contains a lot of questions by me that nobody has answered. So please give it a look. If there continues to be no discussion, I will start editing the article next weekend, step by step, starting with eliminating the abomination *Kuhchen – and this even though I am an armchair linguist with very little knowledge of the primary literature, which means I won't be able to cite anything, and even though my knowledge of the diversity of German (standard and otherwise) outside of Austria is rather poor. (For that matter, I don't even have an armchair. :o) ) David Marjanović 17:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Does German have any pairs between /t^s/ (the affricate) and /ts/ (two separate consonants)?Cameron Nedland 01:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The only places I can think of to find /ts/ as two separate consonants are (1) the genitive singular of masculine/neuter nouns ending in t, e.g. des Internats ("of the boarding school") and (2) the plural of recent loanwords ending in t, e.g. die Intranets ("the intranets"). The closest thing to a minimal pair I can think of off the top of my head would be "des Internets" ("of the Internet") vs. "das Netz" ("the net"), but I don't think the relevant part of those words is pronounced differently. —Angr 06:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There are many compound words that have [ts], where t ends one part and the initial [z] of the second part assimilates to [s]. It might be possible to find a minimal pair with different syllable split, however it would be likely that the one with [t^s] would have a glottal stop as well. −Woodstone 10:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks guys.Cameron Nedland 16:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

What about "Hans"? There seem to be a slight [t] before the [s] at the end... --megA 16:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "er" at the end of words?

I have a book that states "er" at the end of words is pronounced as the unrounded version of the vowel used in eg. "Gott" ( /ɔ/ ) in Standard German. The book uses the the phonetic symbol "ʌ" to represent this sound, which I think is incorrect, as that corresponds approximately to the "short" English "u" sound as in "gut" according to the IPA .

Any thoughts?

76.31.184.107 (talk) 23:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, [ʌ] is the unrounded version of [ɔ] (check the IPA chart) but the German vowel is more central than [ʌ]: it is [ɐ]. I know of no language that contrasts the two and in a number of English dialects (including BBC English), the vowel in "gut" is actually [ɐ] (though it is still commonly transcribed as <ʌ> mostly for historical reasons. So the authors are possibly confused as they hear [ɐ], see this sound transcribed as <ʌ> and figure a better way to describe it is to call it an unrounded [ɔ]. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 00:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who had that idea of Kuhchen?

That word features quite prominently in the section on ich- and ach-Laut, yet it strikes me as odd. The diminutive of Kuh is not "Kuhchen", it must be "Kühchen". I put an accuracy tag. I would like to ask for this statement to be sourced, otherwise I will remove it. Jasy jatere (talk) 09:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

If I remember well, the vowel change in diminutives is only the default rule for masculine nouns. Kuh is feminine, so does not need to follow it. For example Frauchen (not ^*Fräuchen). As reference you may use. [1]. −Woodstone (talk) 10:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I did some googling, and apparently the minimal pair is cited in the latest version of the Duden (which gives it authority, but it still sounds bogus to me). Your idea abt feminines is mistaken, by the way, cf. Dämchen, Fräulein, Mütterchen, etc.

I found this chapter very intersting and well argued.

As is also apparent from the cited chapter, the morpheme boundary in Kuh-chen cannot be denied phonological relevance, which casts doubt on whether this is actually a minimal pair. Jasy jatere (talk) 10:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)