Talk:German exonyms

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Germany Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents

[edit] West Bank vs. Palestine

Using "West Bank" instead of "Palestine" is not biased -- it is more accurate. There may be a Palestinian state named "Palestine" some day, but at the moment the West Bank is a diplomatic no-man's land, not claimed by any sovereign state. "West Bank" is also a politically neutral term, unlike "Palestine" or "Judea."

As for Jerusalem, it is under the full control of Israel, much as that may irk some people. While other countries formally maintain the legal fiction that eastern Jerusalem is not part of Israel, that doesn't mean the eastern part is part of a geographic entity called "Palestine." -- Mwalcoff 23:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Jerusalem is recognized as being part of a Palestinian State by several counries. Most still regard it as being legally part of Jordan. To stay neutral, this fact has be be expressed somehow. I chose "Palestine" as a fairly neutral, as that region existed long before the states of Israel, Jordan or the Palestinian government ever existed.

As for West Bank, that's fine by me, if you prefer that. Travelbird 00:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Well West Bank is more neutral -- while "Palestine" is technically correct from a strictly geographic standpoint, the word has become so closely associated with Palestinian Arabs that using it in conjunction with Jerusalem indicates identification with the Palestinian side. Incidentally, I think some countries consider eastern Jerusalem to be Palestinian territory, but I don't think anyone would consider it part of a Palestinian state, since no Palestinian state yet exists. No country considers it part of Jordan, since no country ever recognized Jordan's right to the city (see Rule of the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan). To Western diplomats, eastern Jerusalem, like the West Bank (or rest of the West Bank, if you prefer), is terra nulla. But I don't really want to argue about this; this is an article on German exonyms, not Mideast politics. -- Mwalcoff 01:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave West Bank but I'll revert Jerusalem back to Israel/Palestine for neutralities sake (since both parties concerned regard all of Jersulaem being part of their territory. Travelbird 22:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Well now there are two issues here. There is the issue that the international community for political reasons does not recognize the annexation of eastern Jerusalem and considers it to be part of the West Bank. For that reason, you can say "Israel/West Bank." What you're saying is that because the Palestinians claim Jerusalem for themselves, we should say "Israel/Palestine." I think there are a few problems with this reasoning. For one, few Palestinians who recognize Israel are pushing a claim for West Jerusalem. The only real area of dispute is East Jerusalem and the Old City. The Palestinians who would claim West Jerusalem would also claim all of Israel. Using that logic, we should list Bratislava as "Slovakia/Hungary" since some Hungarians want to reverse the Treaty of Trianon. So I think "Israel/West Bank" is preferable to "Israel/Palestine." -- Mwalcoff 23:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Well the "claim" does have a fair degree of validity, since it is recognized by several UN member states. That is what differenciate it from right wing Hungarian claims to Slovak territory, which is not recognized by anyone (including the Hungarian government). Travelbird 00:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think any UN member state except perhaps Iran sees West Jerusalem as part of a Palestinian state. Anyway, as mentioned above, there is no Palestinian state yet, so referring to anything as "Palestine" is somewhat misleading. -- Mwalcoff 01:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
A large number of countries, especially from Africa and Asia recognize the existance of the State of Palestine with the borders of 1967. The problem at hand here is similar to that of Western Sahara, which is also a recognized country but almost completely occupied by Morroco. And in the same way, a statement such as "El Aaiún is a city in Morocco" would also be POV since it only provides for the (in this case) Moroccan side of the arguement. Travelbird 01:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, the best way to resolve the Israel/Palestine issue when referring to the disputed territories is to use the neutral term "West Bank." -- Mwalcoff 03:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian places with German names

I removed Yekaterinoslav since it soesn't have any German components. Yekaterina is Russian for Catherine, and the ending -slav is also Russian. So no German there. The fact that Catherine the Great was German doesn't make the town name German. There are however quite a few exonyms still missing, so feel free to add those if you have time. Travelbird 06:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Competing theories

I think that if competing theories to the origin of the name are known to exist it should be either mentioned or the claim removed. What do you think ? --Molobo 13:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Could you be more specific, and provide refs?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  13:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Toruń article provides three theories regarding the origin of the name. In this article we have only one theory presented in a way that suggests it is the only one and the only right one. --Molobo 14:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Any referenced theory should be noted. Depending on a format of the article, footnotes may be preferable. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translations

Some of the translations seem to be original research ("low castle" for Neidenburg?), while the etymology of Thorn is much too long. Olessi 21:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I reiterate my previous statement of the translations seeming to be original research (Kolberg, Neidenburg, Lahna). Additionally, I find the inclusion of Kolberg in the "Polish cities with German names" section questionable, as it was derived from the originally Slavic name (to the best of my knowledge). The proper place to discuss the etymology of each name is within the individual articles, not here and not in a haphazard way. Olessi 17:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I again reiterate that literal translations are inappropriate unless sources can be provided. "Turning mountain" for Heilsberg? "Low burrow" for Neidenburg? "Ship's axe" for Schippenbeil? "Schippen" refers to Ludwig von Schippen, while "beil" is a Germanization of a Prussian word. To me, these translations seem to be the equivalent of describing Meadville, Pennsylvania, as "city of wine made of fermented honey and water, when in fact it was simply named after someone with the surname "Mead". Olessi 07:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)