Talk:Georg Ludwig von Trapp
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[edit] First Wife
Is Agatha Whitehead the "daugther" or "grandaughter" of Robert Whitehead? In the first section she is called the "granddaughter" and in the second section the "daughter" of Robert Whitehead. Which is right?
[edit] “As Maria relates in her book…”
In the “Life between the world wars” section, there is a paragraph which begins with “As Maria relates in her book…”. Which Maria — his daughter or his second wife? I am sure it wouldn't hurt to identify the book. — Bob Blaylock 06:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Sound of Music and the real story
This page has confirmed what I sort of already knew--the makers of THE SOUND OF MUSIC took some liberties with history and geography. When I was stationied on Okinawa as an enlisted man in 1963-1964, a theater off base had a German-language version of the Von Trapp story. (Since the theater was off base, there were no English subtitles--just Japanese ones!). But I understand enough German to know what is going on. This German-language version ought to be shown in the States either dubbed or with subtitles. It covered Maria's coming in with the family to their purchase of the farm in Vermont. It showed what was supposed to be a scene in a fancy New York hotel in 1938, but a 1954 Ford passing by showed the mistakes the makers of that movie made! Thank you for your attention.
- I believe the film that is referred to in the foregoing paragraph is this one. Ellsworth 23:37, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-
- "Die Trapp-Familie in Amerika"
Maria is the hottest woman alive in this story because she always kissed gretel instead of the hot guy!!!!!!so hotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[edit] The Real "Real Story" of the Trapp Family
In the Wikipedia article on Maria von Trapp, there is a link to National Archives material on the Trapp Family. According to those documents, Rupert was born in 1911, and the Captain and Agathe Whitehead, his parents, were married to each other in 1912. Better late than never, I guess.
The National Archives material also includes copies of Maria's declaration of intention and petition for naturalization. Both documents state that the Captain and Maria were married to each other on November 26, 1927, and that their first child, Rosmarie, was born on February 8, 1928. Hey, the Captain is improving. The second time around, he managed to get married BEFORE the child was born. In the December 19, 1938, issue of Time magazine, there is an article on the Trapp Family Choir which claims that Maria is the mother of all of the children.
Just how many versions of the story has the family told over the years?
Today, the official line from the Trapp Family is that Rosmarie was born in 1929, and that the naturalization documents must be mistaken. I doubt it. The documents were executed under oath, at a time when few people had heard of the family. Mothers usually manage to get the birthdates of their children correct.
The declaration of intention was signed in 1944. As Maria relates in her book, around that time, she got into trouble with the War Production Board. She was building her music camp, was cited for violating wartime restrictions, and was threatened with fine and imprisonment. She managed to resolve that problem. I suspect, however, that she was warned that she would have to be absolutely truthful in the naturalization process to avoid any further difficulty with the authority. Thus, when filling out the naturalization documents, she gave Rosmarie's true birth date.
If Maria was pregnant when she married the captain, the story loses a lot of its "family values" appeal, and is premised on a fraud.
130.13.2.104 (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)JPP130.13.2.104 (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Maria's story has certain "holes" in it as well. In her 1949 and 1972 books, she mentions that she taught fifth graders. Yet, in both books, especially the 1972 book, she indicates that she was a cloistered candidate under a vow of silence only permitted to speak for a brief time during each day. Which was it? Fifth grade teacher or candidate? A person can be a teacher in a Catholic school without being a religious, and without even being Catholic. The most likely explanation is that Maria, a recent graduate of the Vienna College for Progressive Education, obtained a teaching position at the convent. Times being what they were, the nuns extended the offer, and she accepted. The VCPE was, by Maria's own admission, a socialist institution, and she had "progressive" teaching methods not previously used in the abbey school. Probably, that created a lot of tension, and she and the nuns soon realized that things were not working out, so they looked for an opportunity to get rid of her. When the captain came along, seeking a private tutor for his sick daughter, I am sure the nuns realized just what they could do "with a problem like Maria," and assigned her the task of being the tutor.
If the dates on the naturalization documents are correct, then Maria became pregnant while serving as tutor. In the book, Maria states that Baroness Matilda, the housekeeper, broke her leg and had to be away for a year, requiring the Captain to place her in charge of supervising the household staff. A more likely explanation is that Baroness Matilda was disgusted by the behavior of the Captain and Maria and left of her own accord and on her own two (unbroken) legs.
I suspect that the pregnant Maria demanded that the captain marry her, and that he refused, hoping to marry Princess Yvonne. In the 1949 book, Maria tells about writing a note to the Captain, which caused him to break his engagement to Yvonne and propose marriage to Maria. Probably, the note was addressed to Yvonne, and it was Yvonne who broke the engagement with the Captain.
In the meantime, Maria probably tried to get her teaching job at the convent back. The convent obviously had no use for a pregnant unmarried nun nor any use for pregnant unmarried schoolteacher. Knowing these facts certain gives a new meaning to the convent's conclusion that it was "God's will" that Maria marry the captain.
Finally, in the 1949 book, Maria claims that she was married in a packed church, on November 26, 1927. That does not seem reasonable. As she admits in the book, the date is one day prior to the start of the Advent season, during which the Catholic church normally refrains from nuptial masses. It is not the usual time for conducting a marriage. It seems like it was a last-minute, hushed up affair, and the captain and Maria were probably married in a simple ceremony attended only by the priest, the parties, and the required witnesses. This is borne out by the fact that, according to the naturalization papers, the child was born only 2 months and 13 days later.
130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)JPP130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
A further fact suggesting that Maria was never a candidate for the religious life is that, in Europe, and at that time, especially, poor people could not enter the religious life. In most cases, a dowry was required, to help provide for the candidate's support. Maria, by her own account, was a poor orphan without funds. The idea that she could just knock on the door of a convent and become a candidate for the religious life (as she states happened in her 1972 book) is ludicrous.
130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)JPP130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The events which purportedly made it necessary for the family to leave Austria seem somewhat suspicious. The "summons" join the Germany Navy seems unlikely. In 1938, the Captain was 58-years old, had not been in a submarine since 1918, or 20 years before, and had lost all his money through a foolish investment. The Germans were not so desparate, in 1938, that they would need him for their Navy or go to any special trouble to get him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Paul Parks (talk • contribs) 03:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Maria also attempts to portray Princess Yvonne as the mean, wicked stepmother to be, relating how Yvonne intended to send the children to boarding school. But let's think about this. Would that have been such an unreasonable thing to do, considering the circumstances? The von Trapp children were upper class nobility, and it could not be expected, given the social customs of Europe, for them to be educated in schools with the common people. Furthermore, they lived in the country (Aigen, the location of the Villa Trapp, was about 30 miles from Salzburg) so, assuming that the children were to receive any education at all, it was likely to be a private school at some distance from their home. In 1927, the year that the Captain and the pregnant Maria were married to each other, Rupert was 16, and he would be about ready to go to the university anyway, and as Maria points out in her 1949 book, he did go to medical school in Innsbruck.
John Paul Parks (talk) 04:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)John Paul ParksJohn Paul Parks (talk) 04:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Reading Maria's 1949 book carefully, we will see that she was a CANDIDATE for the novitiate when they sent her to the captain. In other words, she had not even begun the process of becoming a nun. At best, she was a postulant, a person who is exploring the requirements for becoming a nun. To say that Maria gave up the religious life to marry the captain is like saying that someone who was thinking about applying for admission to Harvard, who got married instead, chose marriage in lieu of a Harvard degree.
130.13.1.23 (talk) 22:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.1.23 (talk) 22:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Ruperts parents married in January 1911, he was born in November of the same year. And his father and stepmother married in November 1927. Rosemarie was born in 1929 (but I'm not sure, look at my question on this page).
References: William Anderson/David Wade - The world of the Trapp Family - 1998 --AndreaMimi (talk) 17:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Please take a look at the following website:
http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/winter/von-trapps.html
The narrative recites that Rupert was born in 1911 and that his parents married in 1912. It further recites that his father and stepmother were married in 1927 and that Rosmarie was born in 1928. In particular, please look at Maria's Declaration of Intention and her Petition for Naturalization. In both documents, she states, under oath, that she was married to Georg von Trapp on November, 1927, and that her first child was born in February, 1928. Primary source documents, executed over 60 years ago, under oath, at a time when relatively few people knew of the von Trapps, are entitled to a great deal of weight in resolving the matter.
John Paul Parks (talk) 02:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I know this link and think, that the informations about Rupert's parents and Rosemaries Brithyear are not correct.
Today, the official line from the Trapp Family is that Rosmarie was born in 1929, and that the naturalization documents must be mistaken. (c) by User: 130.13.2.104
You can ask Rosemarie herself, if she is 1928 or 1929 born. She is still alive and lives in Vermont with her silblings and halfsisters. --AndreaMimi (talk) 10:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
How would Rosmarie, or any other person, know, the year of his or her own birth? Do you have a memory of the day you were born? Rosmarie could only repeat what others have told her. And her own mother, who should know best, has twice testified under oath that Rosmarie was born in 1928. Once in the declaration of intention, and again in the petition for naturalization. Why do you deny what is staring you in the face, in the form of documents executed by Maria von Trapp? John Paul Parks (talk) 05:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
You can ask Rosemarie herself, she is still alive. I repeat my answer.
Every person, I know, for example my parents, know there birthday. Year and day exactly.
See you soon. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
And, I repeat, most respectfully, that no person has any direct knowledge of his or her own birthdate. A newborn baby has no capacity to recall the event. The only thing a person can rely on is what others tell him. That is why we have birth certificates, which are an independent record of the event made at or near the time of its occurrence.
It would be interesting to obtain a properly-authenticated copy of Rosmarie's birth certificate and settle the question once and for all. I would also accept a properly-authenticated baptismal certificate. In Europe, the Catholic Church is almost obsessive-compulsive about keeping such records, because in many places, there were no vital record registries other than the church, which kept baptismal, marriage, and death records for its members. John Paul Parks (talk) 05:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
It's very complicated to understand your text ;), but I know, what you mean.
I think you can find Rosemarie's birth certificate and take a look on it. It's true, that she was born in Salzburg.
But I can't imagine, that she was born only five months after her parents are married. That's not typical for the 1920th and for the Catholic Trapp Family.
I have a question: When and where are you born ? Or can't you remember that ? ;)
I know my birthday and my birthplace, but I'm not a famous person as Rosemarie von Trapp. --AndreaMimi (talk) 13:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I have no independent recollection of my birth (nor does anyone else), but I do have a birth certificate that was issued a few days after the event. According to the naturalization documents, Rosmarie was born a little over two months after her parents' marriage to each other. We are discussing a specific case, not what is typical. Merely because a person is Catholic does not mean he is perfect. With all due respect, if you think that Catholics (or anyone else) do not get into this situation, you are incredibly naive and uninformed.
Maria admits in her 1949 book that her sudden marriage to the Captain caused a gossip scandal, and she also mentions that the Captain did not join the Catholic Church until approximately a year before she met him. Recall that the Captain was first married to an Englishwoman, and he may have married her in the Anglican church, at least for social purposes.
John Paul Parks (talk) 15:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I mean. A birth certificate.
And I know, that Georg von Trapp was a Lutheran and joined to the Catholics for his children. Look here: http://www.trappfamily.com
You can send a mail and ask a secretary, when Rosemarie is born. I had done that and get the answer, that she is born in 1929. --AndreaMimi (talk) 12:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Did the "secretary" send a certified copy of the birth certificate or the baptismal certificate?
John Paul Parks (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You don't check it ! I'm very angry.
Now I will explain it slowly: Rosemarie Ehrentrudis von Trapp is born on the 8th February 1929 in Salzburg. Now she lives in Vermont. She has never married and is childless.
Why don't you believe the ressources for example the book from William Anderson/David Wade "The World of the Trapp Family" (1998/2007) ?
And why don't you believe me ? You don't nee a copy of the birth certificate or the baptismal certificate.
I give you some links. There you can see, thate Rosemarie is born 1929. --AndreaMimi (talk) 19:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Your "evidence" is merely hearsay. The birth certificate or baptismal certificate is the best evidence. When someone applies for a passport, and claims to have been born in the United States, does the Government issue them a passport based on their statement alone? No. They require proof, in the form of a birth certificate or other acceptable evidence.
John Paul Parks (talk) 12:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Why can't you belive, that Rosemarie Ehrentrudis is born 1929 in Salzburg ? Many ressources give this fact.
I think that Maria Augusta had given the false year in the important document and had never corrected the mistake. --AndreaMimi (talk) 16:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ethnicity
From its article, Zadar has a Croatian-Italian (Venetian?) tradition, but I gather that Herr Trapp was of German (Austrian? Germanic?) ethnicity. I suppose that the Austro-Hungarian Empire classified the ethnicity of its subjects beyond the place of birth or residence. Could you tell then how was Herr Trapp classified?
- Being born in Dalmatia, wouldn't he be considered Croatian? ➥the Epopt 01:23, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Interestingly enough, if you check in the Croatian telephone directory (http://www.tportal.hr/imenik/default.asp?lang=1), there are five Trapps listed on the island of Rab, just south of Rijeka (Fiume)where Georg and Agathe used to live.
- Irrelevant. Not all Austrian 'colonists' left after WW1. Besides Trapp is a German name.
-
- I don't think the contributor was trying to add something of "relevance" to the article or discussion, they were making an interesting observation. Dainamo 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- There were Trapp families in Eastern Europe too. Check those links: (http://feefhs.org/de/batschka/hodschag.html) and (http://feefhs.org/bukovina/alexdorf.html). So, not neccessary Trapp's father must came from Germany. Bukowina and Batschka were parts of monarchy at the time.
- I don't think the contributor was trying to add something of "relevance" to the article or discussion, they were making an interesting observation. Dainamo 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
maria is a very charming woman- put by me- in the context of her arrival —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.153.126.38 (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I read in the book from William Anderson/Davide Wade, that the Trapp Family had Italian passports from their father Georg Ludwig von Trapp (birthplace in Zadar, Croatia). Not Rupert, he was Austrian, when he studied to became a doctor. --AndreaMimi (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] After Anschluss
There is almost nothing about his whereabouts after Anschluss. Where did he die? --Error 02:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
- He went to America with his family and died in Stowe, Vermont. --Dhartung | Talk 06:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'd agree that this page needs more on the information on the later events of his life - where could I find that information?
Yoda921 12:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Yoda
[edit] Titles etc
The "Notes" section goes into some good historical detail about titles of nobility after WWI. This is relevant not only to von Trapp but also to many other notable people we have articles about. It ought to appear in a relevant Wikipedia article, with a link from here. JackofOz 03:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] His Children
Is there no information on the births/deaths of his children? The page for the Sound of Music says that the names of the children were changed--what were their real names? Morhange 23:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- I'm glad to see that at least some info about his children was added. Morhange 00:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Here are my informations about the Trapp Family:
Rupert (1911-1992), Agathe (1913), Maria (1914), Werner (1915), Hedwig (1917-1972), Johanna (1919-1994), Martina (1921-1951), Rosemarie (1929), Eleonore (1931) and Johannes (1939).
Now (2007) are only Maria and Johannes are still alive. The others died, but I don't know exactly when.
And: Georg and his first wife Agathe married in January 1911, Rupert was born in November in the same year.
Book: William Anderson/David Wade: The World of the Trapp Family
In the German Wikipedia are the the birthdays of the "children" and the deathdays too.
Andrea (known as Andrea1984 in the German Version of the Wikipedia) - 14:10, 14. June 2007 (UTC)
I'm very sorry. I found out, that Agathe, Maria, Werner, Rosmary, ,Eleonore and Johannes are very still alive. The all live in Vermont, USA.
I changed the informations in the German Version of Wikipedia.
--AndreaMimi (talk) 18:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Trapp's titles - many wrong details
Unfortunately, there are many wrong details concerning Austrian noble titles and military ranks in this article. I've corrected them several times in the past, but they keep re-appearing again. Most notably, these are: (1) "Kommandant". This was not an Austrian military rank; instead Trapp's naval position is correctly called "k.u.k. Linienschiffsleutnant". (2) The link to the Military Order of Maria Theresa keeps disappearing. (3) The section on Trapp's title of nobility (begining with "For his wartime service (...)" is greatly misleading, primarily because the structure of the nobility in Austria-Hungary was entirely different from that in the United Kingdom. Applying terms such as "knight (Sir)" or "baronet" is not appropriate in this context, and a statement like "The introduction of 'von' changes the title from a knighthood to a hereditary baronetcy" is simply wrong. ViennaUK 09:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(4) Not Georg Ludwig himself was elevated to the Austrian nobility, but his father, the k.u.k. Fregattenkapitän August Trapp, afterwards styled "August Ritter von Trapp". Titles of nobility were generally hereditary in Austria. (5) Had Trapp received his appointment to the Military Order of Maria Theresa before the end of the monarchy in 1918, he would have qualified for the title of "Freiherr" (baron) in the Austrian nobility. As the Order Chapter approved of the award on April 21, 1924 only Trapp remained a "Ritter". ViennaUK (talk) 21:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I've deleted the sentence about his being ennobled for his service in World War. It's obviously incorrect. Anyone who reads the article can see that. The article had read, "His father, August von Trapp, died in 1884, when he was four....For his service, [Georg] Trapp was raised to the nobility and granted the right to use the word von (of in English) before his name." How could he raised to the nobility and given the "von" if his father already had? Poldy Bloom (talk) 03:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Rosmary's Birthday
Yet, Maria von Trapp's declaration of intention and petition for naturalization states that Rosmarie's birth occurred the year before, in 1928.
When is Rosmarie born ? In 1928 or in 1929 ? What's true ?
I know, that she is still alive and live in Vermont (USA).
--AndreaMimi (talk) 17:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, as to 1928/9, as noted above, the family tells one tale, and the documents tell another. As for the rest of the family:
1 August Johann von Trapp (1836 - 1884) & Hedwig Wepler ( - 1911)
1a Ritter Georg von Trapp* (1880 - 1947) & Agathe Whitehead (1890 - 1922)
1a Rupert von Trapp M.D.* (1911 - 1992) & Henrietta Lajoie
1b Rupert von Trapp M.D.* (1911 - 1992) & Janice Tyre
2 Agathe von Trapp (1913 - )
3 Maria "Mitzi" von Trapp (1914 - )
4 Werner von Trapp (1915 - 2007) & Erika Klambauer
5 Hedwig von Trapp (1917 - 1972)
6 Johanna von Trapp (1919 - 1994) & Ernst Florian Winter
7 Martina von Trapp (1921 - 1952) & Jean Dupire
1b Ritter Georg von Trapp* (1880 - 1947) & Maria Augusta Kutschera (1905 - 1987)
1 Rosmarie Erentrudis von Trapp (1928 - )
2 Eleonore (Lorli) von Trapp (1931 - ) & Hugh D. Campbell
3 Johannes Georg von Trapp (1939 - ) & Lynne Peterson
2 Werner von Trapp ( - 1915) & Connie
1 Connie von Trapp
3 Hede von Trapp
- Nunh-huh 08:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I know, that Agathe and Maria are still alive. I asked somebody, who works at the lodge via e-mail. And the secetary, i think, mailed, that Agathe, Maria, Werner (in summer 2007 he was still alive), Rosemarie, Eleonore and Johannes are still alive.
Martinas husband was (is ?) Jean Dupiere.
--AndreaMimi (talk) 11:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I put the mother Maria's death date in for both her and her daughter; I'll remove her daughter's. Werner died 11 October 2007 in Waitsfield, Vermont. Otherwise our data agrees. - Nunh-huh 12:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The family tree is very interessting. I know, that Hedwig was named after her paternal grandmother. Georg said in the book "The Story of the Trapp Family" after Eleonores birthday, that he don't know why he had 7 girls. He wanted to name a girl Barbara, after the patron of the marine. Then he explain why it don't happend: "The first child was a boy, Rupert. The first girl is named after her mother (Agathe), the next after her grandmother (Maria, maternal grandmother and Hedwig, paternal grandmother, Werner after his uncle, who died during the WW I). So the holy Barbara give one girl after next the next, until I keep my promis."
Thank your for corrections.
Do you know, where Johanna is buried ? She died in Vienna 1994 on the affects of a stroke. And is not buried on the lodge in Vermont. --AndreaMimi (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, sorry, I don't have any more details on her death. Find-A-Grave seems to think she died in Minnesota on Christmas 1994 and is buried at the Trapp Familyl Lodge, but I too have read elsewhere that she died in Austria where her husband was a professor of Diplomatic Studies. - Nunh-huh 13:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC) (Also, Martina's husband's name is spelled different ways in different books, but on her grave marker it seems to be "Dupire"). - Nunh-huh 14:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I know, that Ernst Florian Winter is still alive and his children too. Only a son died in childhood.
Look her: William Anderson/Davide Wade: The World of the Trapp Family, 1998. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Can you help me ?
I put the dates to the children on this page in the form like here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Alice_of_the_United_Kingdom#Marriage - in a table.
But it don't look very well.
The dates are correct. You can put a link to Agathe, Maria Franziska and Werner, because there are some informations about them.
Please help me to find a correct form of the table.
Now I put the links in a correct form. It looks better.
Everything is fine. I can help myself. ;) --AndreaMimi (talk) 12:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Johannas Grave
Look here: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GScid=641570
But one point is not correct: Johanna died on the 25th November on the affects of a stroke in Vienna, not on the 25th of December like in the link.
Probably somebody can correct it on this page.
I wish you a nice weekend. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Two questions
Two questions please.
- Did the von Trapps lose their real property, that is their estate, when they left Austria and, if so,
- Did they get it back after the war? Avalon (talk) 04:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
@Avalon
Please, give me some time to research this question. Then you get the answer. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
According to Maria's 1949 book:
Immediately after the family left, the German Army seized the house and its grounds, and it was used by Heinrich Himmler as his headquarters. It would be interesting to obtain independent verification of the story. After the war, the family was able to recover the property, but sold it to St. Joseph's Seminary. The family visited again in 1950, as part of a musical concert performance they gave in Salzburg.
John Paul Parks (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The house is open as an hotel and the park too. It will be opend in July 2008. The members of the Trapp Family don't want to have it back, since the built their lodge in Austria. --AndreaMimi (talk) 16:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Agathe Whitehead von Trapp
She was born 1890 and died on the 3rd September 1922. But I don't know her birthday. And I can't find anything in the internet about this.
Can somebody help me ? --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
