Talk:Geats

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Contents

[edit] Several older subjects

From the geography described in the poem, it would appear that its events take place along the shores of Lake Vänern, and it was in this lake that the monster Grendel dwelled.

Beowulf is a Geat, but he crosses the sea to fight Grendel. Klaeber places that part of the story in Zealand. Matthew Woodcraft

I suggest changing "kingdom" in the article to something with better foundation in accepted science. Talk about tribes and chieftains instead, there's support for that terminology. There is also no evidence that the Geatas of Beowulf have anything to do with present-day Swedish territory, and the place-names mentioned involving "Göta-" (Göteborg, Göta älv, Östergötland, Västergötland) are iirc all much more recent than unified Sweden. The history of any independent Götaland should imo at this time be kept in the realm of speculation. OlofE 14:03 May 4, 2003 (UTC)

I was unaware of any major issues or doubt surrounding the identification of the Beowulf Geats with the areas in Sweden now apparently named after them. The names are cognate; Geatas and Götar are the expected outcomes in Old English and East Norse of PGmc *gauta-. Geats are named by that name in Codex Holm from around 1280, which also mentions "Østrægøtland" and "Østgøtar" as well, which seem recognisable antecedents of the names of the Swedish regions. Of course, this is well after the 500s but probably too early for people to be renaming their territory because of romantic identification with the heroes of Old English literature. As to calling them "kingdoms," the only kingdom I see mentioned in this article is the kingdom of the Swedes. In the USA we're used to being told to turn "tribes" into "nations" in any case. It probably pays to err on assuming sophistication rather than otherwise. -- IHCOYC 03:18 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
At least 4 different "tribes" have some sort of claim to the geatas link - Götar, Gutar (the people of Gotland in the Baltic sea), Jutar (Jutes I believe - present day Danish mainland) plus the hard-to-work-with, the Goths. The claim of Beowulf's ancestry has been made a symbolic one in patriotic disputes between the regions more than once. The latest Swedish translation of Beowulf does indeed not translate Geatas with Götar, but preserves the original word (despite the new foreword making the expressly wishful assumption that the hero's origin could/should be in Västergötland).
Regarding kingdoms and kings, this is a matter of current debate and one that tends to interest a lot of people in Sweden today. The matter of which regions have identified themselves as a unit in some sense, and when they did so, has some bearing on the nature of the birth of the nation of Sweden, and the rivalry between the two main regions. I wouldn't call the discussion infected, but there is some pretty heated arguing going on and new books are constantly being released. Anyway, keep it as is, I'll get back when I can contribute something - good work:-) OlofE 06:39 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

Claiming that the Goths of Gotland played a great part in continental history is, how should I put this.... not designed to increase one's credibility. Maybe it's a conspiracy. OlofE 19:09, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The connection between Gautar and Geatas is only controversial due to regional rivalry. The Jutes, for instance, were known to the Anglo-saxons who called them Eotas. As the Eotas were part of the A-S stock, there is no sense in assuming that the A-S confused Geatas and Eotas. Moroever, the A-S ea corresponded to Old Norse au and modern Swedish ö: leaf-löv, reave-röva, dream-dröm, bear-björn, mead-mjöd, etc. Geatas is the logical A-S form of Old Norse gautar and modern Swedish götar. Wiglaf

I don't agree, no. To begin with, "fascist" is not a word you use in a NPOV article about a 16th century person, no matter what your views are. From there on, the conspiracy described is pure hot air. Womb of peoples? In the same breath as "goals of wikipedia"? Suddenly I remember why I stopped coming to the pedias. Nevermind. Someone will find the article, eventually. Not me though. OlofE 20:53, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Someone got a little overzealous by turning the Jutes article into a redirect to this one. While some authorities believe the two people are the same, one can discuss either people without reference to the other: the Geats relate to Swedish history, while the Jutes to Anglo-Saxon history. After this possible identity in the 6th century, neither nation has much to do with each other until the Viking era. Combining the two articles leads to confusion. They are separate topics. -- llywrch 19:27, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OlofE, you seem to adress the words 'fascist' and 'womb of people' at me. This is silly and you are building a strawman. I have NOT done those contributions to the article. I don't believe there is a conspiracy and I have NOT written that there is anything such. You seem to be personally opposed to the generally accepted identification between 'geats' and 'gauts'. And you have NOT given any linguistic or historical proof for your point of view. The fact that the recent Swedish translation does not translate 'Geat' with 'Gaut' but preserves the original form is NOT any such proof. I am a linguist, but I know a number of Swedish history professors. This period of Swedish "history" is not politically correct in Sweden, and Swedish historians avoid it. I doubt that you have missed that. Keeping the original form of the name is just a convenient way of avoiding possible conflicts. Wiglaf

P.S. OlofE, next time you addess me, please, bring something substantial to support your point of view, and DON'T put words in my mouth. Wiglaf

Nonsense. They *were* quotes, but not by you nor aimed at you. Mr Allan-whatever used the word "fascist" in the article, I told him it had no place there. Later, Mr Allan decided to withdraw from the wikipedia because he could not settle his differences in any of the conflicts he kept getting into. He then proceeded to delete all his comments everywhere, not caring a bit that it left some pages incomprehensible. Consult the history for the pages to see how the comments relate to each other. OlofE 21:04, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I see it was Kenneth Allan! I have had to remove some paragraphs that he has written, in other articles. They are usually a mishmash of strange and confused etymological speculations. Just look at Frith. I was so stunned when I read it that I have not had the energy to remove his contribution there. Wiglaf

I think we should drop the mention of Göteborg or rephrase it, as that name is very recent. There are plenty of placenames with a "correcter" heritage in their names, like Götala. (Götene? I don't recall the history of that). // OlofE 08:05, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have changed according to your suggestions.--Wiglaf 18:00, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I saw - great:) (How's the thesis coming along?) // OlofE 18:34, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am supposed to be finished this fall.--Wiglaf 19:30, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Contradictions

First, the article says: The languages of Goths and Geats were strikingly different...

Then it says: There is no knowledge about differences in language between Geats and Goths. There is no remaining literature. Out of the very few runic words found in alleged territories of the Geats and Goths, no conclusions can be made.

Which is it? Joey 20:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I've pointed out such discrepancies before, but nobody cared to answer. Read my comments interspersed in the text. That the Geats and the Goths were actually the same ethnic group was a pet theory of Wiglaf. After he left Wikipedia, some purging of his fringe theories needs to be done. --Ghirla -трёп- 15:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever said "Awwww Geat, Geat, Geat, Geat"?

I can't see that Wiglaf has ever written that in his contributions. "Pet theory" is obviously a below the belt attack from mr Ghirlandajo who seems to be a controversial user. Isse

[edit] Pronunciation

How do you pronounce Geat? Is it gæɑt? Ireneshusband 07:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

In English, I just think it's thick g as in goose, rhyming with eat. 惑乱 分からん 22:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the title of the Swedish King

From the last sentence of the History text: "To this day, the Swedish kings still formally call themselves svears och götars konung (king of Swedes and Geats, or Rex Sweorum et Gothorum)."

This is no longer true. When present Swedish king Carl-Gustaf acceded in 1973 he deleted the minor titels ("King of Swedes, Geats and Wends") and his title is "only" King of Sweden (Sveriges Konung). The same did danish Queen Margerethe who acceded 1972, she dropped the titles og Geats, Wends etc.

[edit] Vandals?

I changed the reference to Vandals for Wendish, which is the origin of the tripartite folks formula "Svea, Göta and Vende konung". Svea refers to Swear, and Götar to Geats, but the folk Vende was stolen from the Danish king, since the Danish king first claimed to be king of Danes, Geats and Wendish. The tripartite formula was later connected to the three-crowns symbol, which is commonly believed to be the personal heraldic of king Albert of Mecklenburg. This connection of threes is an invention. The later connection between Göta and Goths, and Wendish and Vandals, was invented in the 17th century to inflate the importance of Sweden and Swedishness, a subculture that fell into heavy disgrace from WW II and on. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 09:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geats, Svear and Swedes

The article differentiates between Geats and Swedes. It is my understanding that Swedes is the collective term for Geats, Gotlanders and Svear. In light of this, the article should change Swedes to Svear where relevant. Please see the version of the map used in the Svear article.KarlXII 15:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Swedes is the most common name used for the "svear" in English. Swedes is also since a long time back the preferred translation of svear at Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board/Terminology. Don't equate Swedes with "svenskar". Swedes means both "svear" and "svenskar", just as svenskar did in the middle ages (in Västgötalagen a "svensk man" was NOT a Geat). Moreover, when Geats are discussed, "Swedes" is unambiguous and there is no risk for confusion.--Berig 15:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has (temporarily?) been moved to My talk page. Everyone is welcome there.KarlXII 20:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] western and eastern Geats

In modern Swedish a distinction is often made between eastern and western Geats (Östgötar och Västgötar) analogous to Eastern Geatland (Östergötland) and Western Geatlant (Västergötland) and similar distinctions between the two languages. I believe there have also be historical differences between the two. Should this be mentioned in the article?KarlXII 13:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It can absolutely be mentioned in the article.--Berig 13:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surely this is mixed up?

Current text says:

"Moreover, he described that on this island there were three tribes called the Gautigoths (cf. Geat/Gaut), the Ostrogoths (cf. the Swedish province of Östergötland) and Vagoths (Gotlanders?)."

Surely this must be the other way around, i.e. Gautigoths = Gotlanders, Vagoths = Västergötar (pronounced Vägötar)? --217.211.25.143 19:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It's very hard to know and most likely subject to debate. Luckily someone updated the text to reflect this, but the text should be fuzzied more, to reflect the lack of knowledge, it currently seem to imply that east gauts moved into the Wisła area..., but since occurence of a certain kind of monster fibulae instead seem to imply a more intense connection between the Wielbark culture and the southern and western coast of current day Sweden and current day Norway, the matter is far from decideable with the current knowledge. IMO the WPtext should reflect the science debate, its camps and their respective arguments – WP would be more fascinating that way. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 12:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beowulf's Geats = Götar ?

The article states as given that the Geats mentioned in Beowulf are the same as the Swedish Götar/Gutar. From what I've understood, this is not so clear or certain. Many mention that a more likely identification is that the Geats of Beowulf are in fact the Jutar (from Jutland). Although I'm not suggesting that the article should replace one assumed 'fact' with another, I do think the article should mention the uncertainty which exists on the issue and why. Certainly, the Swedish wikipedia article on Beowulf mentions this. For those of you who can read Swedish:

Medan identifikationen mellan geater och götar är ganska okontroversiell i den engelskspråkiga världen, är den intressant nog mer kontroversiell i svenska sammanhang. Det anglosaxiska ea motsvarade au i fornnordiska, och ö i modern svenska, jämför leaf-löv, reave-röva och så vidare. Det fornengelska ordet geatas betyder helt enkelt götar. Emellertid skildras geaterna i dikten som ett folk i nära förknippning med havet, medan götarna historiskt varit inlandsbundna. Detta har föranlett en del frågeställningar.
Andra som är tänkbara som geater är gutarna. För en engelsman på medeltiden kan gutarna, pågrund av namnlikheten, mycket väl ha missuppfattats som götar. Gotland passar dessutom bättre in i den geografi som dikten målar upp än de båda götalandskapen. Vidare nämns ibland jutar, fast de nog har lite väl långt till svealandskapen. Historiskt finns det inget samband mellan j-ljudet i jutar och g:et i geater. Någon gotisk folkspillra vid Östersjöns sydkust är väl mindre trovärdig, ehuru bättre placerad för att strida med folk från Mälartrakten. Hur som helst kan det fortfarande inte sägas med säkerhet var Beowulf egentligen hör hemma.
I think someone should translate this to English. I'm a swede, but I think we shouldn't write untranslated Swedish on an English Encycl. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 12:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Regards Osli73 02:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Uncertainty in the issue? Well, I would not consider Swedish Wikipedia to be an authority in the matter since Beowulf is virtually uknown in Sweden, for various reasons. In the English-speaking world where the identity of Beowulf's Geats is more interesting, they are generally considered to have lived in southern Sweden, but you don't need to trust me in the issue. Just try googling Geats, Götar, Jutes, Sweden, Gotland and Jutland for a while and you can make up your own mind in the issue.--Berig 17:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On Gautar and Geatas

This section is currently ended with "especially in Sweden, where the debate about Sweden's history prior to the 11th century is affected". While it is true that there is a debate about the history of country prior to the 11th century, I don't see where the identity of the Gautar in Beowulf has any direct bearing on this. Cheers Osli73 16:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

As you may know, Swedish history prior to the 13th century is so poorly documented that the period before the 11th century is a place where historians tread carefully. The period before the 11th century is also an eldorado for cranks (Götaland theory). Personally, I trust non-Swedish scholarship more than native scholarship when Sweden's earliest history is concerned. The reason is that non-Swedish scholarship is less liable to be affected by any hangover angst from Swedish romantic nationalism and gothicismus and consequently more neutral and emotionally detached when dealing with pre-historic Swedish ethnicities.--Berig 17:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weder

In Old English, Geats are often called Wedera. I notice that Weders redirects here. But there's no mention of the word in the article. Do we know where it comes from or what it means exactly? Widsith 11:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This source mentions wedera as part of a kenning in which the Geats are called the "people of the weathers". Maybe, it only refers to the Geats when they are referred to as a sailing people.--Berig 12:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Someone reqd merge Gaut+Geat. Any reason, please?! Or, since the request is given without reason, I may be tempted to remove the request templates. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 11:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Goths / Gutar?

The article seems to draw a straight line between Goths and Gutar when there is no general agreement they were the same tribe. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is at least agreed that they carried the same ethnonym. Similar pairings of tribes appeared on both shores of the North Sea, such as the Jutes (Jutland and England) and Saxons (N. Germany and England), but I am not aware of any controversies considering their common origins.--Berig 11:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, their languages were different, anyway. Gutnish was North Germanic, while Gothic was East Germanic. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 16:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, during the Age of Migrations, they would begin to speak different branches. However, until c. 100 AD they both spoke Common Germanic.--Berig 16:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Göteborg

The article abounds with anachronism, but this one in the introduction may be the most egregious one. Göteborg was founded and named 1621 by Gustavus Adolphus, when Swedish gothicism was fashionable and when Sweden was an international power. The name was of course connected to the river Göta Älv, but was primarily meant to refer to the Goths that brought about the Fall of the Roman Empire. I do not think Beowulf played much of a role in the Swedish illusions of historical grandeur of the time: Gothenburg. Rudbeck c.s. wrote much more about the Thracian Getae of classical times than about Anglosaxons. Also, "Geatsburg" does not occur in print - I checked books.google and scholar.google for that. So I will start cleaning out the Göteborg stuff. /Pieter Kuiper 06:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

First, you misunderstood the "Geatsburg". It wasn't intended as a name but a translation of Göteborg. Secondly, the name Göteborg wasn't made up by Gustavus II but by Karl IX, son of Gustav Vasa. Karl IX felt the need to build a strong fortification for the Götaland part of Sweden, therefore the city was named "Götarnas" or "Götalands" borg. This town, which was placed at the island "Hisingen", was destroyed 1611 by the danes, and later Gustavus II decided to build a new town with the same name at the mouth of Göta Älv. /Leos Friend 23:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I also think that the mentioning of Gothenburg is relevant in the article.--Berig 07:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Geatsburg is just the silliest thing. It does not occur in print. WP:HOAX /Pieter Kuiper 19:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Götaland theory

Let me start at the top, even though it is out of place. This page is full of right wing imperialism. The trick is to equalize words like svear with people around mälaren. In reality, sources like Adam are such that it is possible to view Geats as an extra noble tribe of Swedes. As the article is read one gets the feeling that this tribe Geats is inferior. The simple fact is that there were medieval Geatish kings, and that for over 200 years there were no successful pretender from around mälaren. As it is, the article is presented with translations that are not supported by anything but for provincialism. Neither Saxo nor äldre västgötalagen actually proves that a Swedish centre were to be found around mälaren. I expect that contributors like berig will provide ample sources as to how we should determine what we actually mean when we speak of ethnicity. If this person berig cannot do that, I will add an Ockham's razor interpretation. For foreigners reading this stuff I can explain the question in hand with some thoughts about the king of England. We know now that there have been many kings of England, who could be described not exactually as English. This is the problem with this article; it tries to say that a king of Sweden had to be approved by a deciding force from around mälaren, but present day historians do not agree. This is an extremely difficult question for provincialists, but not for others. Foreigners will understand it easily when they think of the heptarchy. No one has said that London always has to be on top. In fact, present day medieval Swedish historians look towards foreign examples for to understand the creation of the ethnicity of Sweden.- 01:23, 28 October 2007 85.224.199.102

I recommend the article Götaland theory. Someone has added a subsection called the "socialist approach" which you might be interested in.--Berig 07:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On Goths and Geats

I think the article should point out that the Geats are more than likely to be a Gothic tribe, just not the Goths of Europe. Gapts are also Gothic and the Ostrogoths and Visigoths were not actually called Goths by themselves. The Ostrogoths were called 'Greuthung'. The Visigoths and Ostrogoths are merely the Gothic tribes who migrated to Europe. King Óðinn The Aesir 15:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geat, the son of Tatwa

Geat also occurs in the Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies, as the son of Tatwa or Taetwa. In the List of kings of the Angles, he is the father of Godwulf. Geat is said the have been worshipped as a god. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, ancestral people named Geat/Gautr are known to exist in legendary medieval accounts. He is known as Gautr in Old Norse sources, i.e. Odin.--Berig (talk) 13:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] General identification?

I had removed the peacock terms claiming "general identification" of ethnonyms. Of course, Berig reverted this, stating in the edit summery the identification of the two forms as the same name is not debated by anyone. But even Berig does not know everything. Jane Acomb Leake proposed that the ethnonym i Beowulf might ultimately originate from the ancient Getae. And nowadays, the general attitude seems to be not to make simple one-to-one identifications. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 20:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, a Leake argued in 1967 that the author of Beowulf was inspired by the Getae and that Swedes and legendary people like the Scyldings were brought in to give the account a semblance of reality. As far as I know, her analysis has been criticized as problematic[1] and her suggestion has failed to receive any following whatsoever, apart from a favourable mention in 1972[2]. I understand that you are excited about having discovered this piece of information, but unfortunately, it is much less notable than the Jutish hypothesis, and it is very far from the mainstream view we represent in WP articles.--Berig (talk) 13:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)