Talk:Freedom in the World (report)

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Please be aware a Freedom House employee is participating in this talk page. User 63.138.81.98 is in fact a Feedom House employee, see discussion below for details. Pexise 12:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] This article is not biased

I don't see why the neutrality of this article is disputed. The actual ranking itself may be biased, but that does not mean the article that merely lists the results is biased. If this article is called "Ranking of freedom" and it pretended Freedom House was the sole authority on freedom, then it would be biased, but it isn't. Hypothetically speaking if Adolph Hitler made a freedom ranking and it was notable enough, then it would deserve an article here. That doesn't mean the ranking itself is neutral.

Freedom House is a notable ranking because it is taken seriously by some, and besides the Economist's Index of Democracy there isn't an "overall" (i.e. not press or economic") rating out there: see list. If Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch wants to make their own rankings, they'll be listed there too - but they haven't as far as I know.

From the list Freedom House appears to be credible because their rankings correlate with the other rankings. Someone pointed out that having the US as "free" and Russia as "not free" is biased, but the other indices rank Russia lower than the US too. Are we going to say that the Canadian Fraser Institute, French Reporters Without Borders, and British The Economist are run by American "neocons" too? I should also point out that if you look at their country reports, they're well aware of Gitmo and the Patriot Act, it's not like they're just heaping praise on the US.

DisgruntledWaterlooStudent 02:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Unrepresentative" in definition of democracy

I do not know if I have to change it since I did not put it in the "electoral democracy" definition in "Freedom in the World 2007", and there was no link to check it, so I put it here: "3. Regularly contested elections conducted in conditions of ballot secrecy, reasonable ballot security, and in the absence of massive voter fraud that yields results that are unrepresentative of the public will;" No dae 12:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second paragraph introduces bias

I think the problem with this article is the second paragraph. It is essentially just a quote from Freedom House and as such makes the article biased in favour of Freedom House. The paragraph should either be removed or another paragraph quoting an alternative source should be introduced. Otherwise the article looks like a mouthpiece for Freedom House's POV. Pexise 21:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no prohibition in Wikipedia against such quoting. If you want to clarify, you might add, "According to Freedom House..."Ultramarine 22:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
That is not the point, I am questioning whether the paragraph belongs in this article. Pexise 22:04, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
NPOV states that all views should be presented. That includes FHs view. If you want to add other views, that fine.Ultramarine 22:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Could someone other than Ultramarine offer their opinion on this? I am concerned that Ultramarine does not have a neutral stance concerning this topic (see discussion on Freedom House entry.) Pexise 08:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Spare me the ad hominem. What is important is Wikipedia policy, like WP:NPOV, not the personal opinions of anonymous Wikipedia editors, my own or others.Ultramarine 09:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
  • From WP:NPOV "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight..." Pexise 09:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Again, if you feel a view is missing, add it. Obviously the view of FH is relevant regarding their own report.Ultramarine 09:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Me: 'That is not the point, I am questioning whether the paragraph belongs in this article.'Pexise 09:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Me: 'Could someone other than Ultramarine offer their opinion on this?' Pexise 09:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
You have offered no explanation for why a valid view should be removed. Looking at the edits you have made in Wikipedia, they have only been about criticizing FH, nothing else, so I am also concerned that you do "not have a neutral stance concerning this topic"Ultramarine 09:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
  • From WP:NPOV "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight..." 84.12.87.164 10:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The first edit by an IP. From NPOV "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral; that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."Ultramarine 10:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
      • I would actually agree with Pexise that the second paragraph isn't really needed, though not because it is inherently bias. It seems like an in-depth discussion of Freedom House's financial sources, and critisisms of Freedom House as whole should be put into the main Freedom House article, not this sub-article. Maybe a line that specifically points readers to that page for more information about the organization as a whole.
As a side note, while Freedom House as a whole gets a lot of its money from the Government, the Freedom in the World report is privately funded, not government funded. So this discussion of government funding seems particularly moot here, and like it belongs in the main article. 63.138.81.98 16:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Exactly - that was my point. Perhaps the paragraph could be replaced with a line such as: "There is some debate over the neutrality of Freedom House and the methodology used for the FITW report - see main article Freedom House." Pexise 08:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
BTW - it is interesting that you mention that Freedom in World is privately funded, indeed making the discussion about govternment funding even less relevant here. Although I would argue that this does not make FITW an 'independent' piece of research - far from it. Pexise 08:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
          • Agree we can remove this paragraph, but then the "predominantly US-funded", at the start of the article, should also be removed.Ultramarine 08:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
          • I will leave the question of the independence of the report alone. But I would say that including the paragraph without mentioning the funding sources for the report in particular in this article leaves the impression that the report itself is funded by the US government, which just isn't true. I would agree that we should replace the paragraph about the funding with the sentence you suggested... as to removing the "predominately US-funded" I would agree that either we should remove it, or we should add a more neutral description of Freedom House... apparently, "Predominately US-Funded" is a reason not to trust them; non-partisian or something would be a reason to trust them... maybe we could say the "US-based non-profit organization" which is somewhat less loaded, and how they are described on the main Freedom House article, I think. 63.138.81.98 17:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
            • Thank you for your opinion, it could not be otherwise, considering you are a Freedom House employee. I used WikiScanner (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/) and came up with your address (63.138.81.98) for Freedom House. Please make explicit you work for Freedom House and do not try to pose as another unbiased and unrelated Wikipedia editor. It is unfair. Schizophonix 10:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "predominately US-funded"

It says this in the intro, does it need to be in EVERY caption for the maps? Seems a little POV to me "It is US-based, so take it with a grain of salt". user:Pzg Ratzinger

Indeed, once in the intro is enough. —Nightstallion (?) 19:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] de-facto single party states

What about countries with de-facto one=party systems? Would South Africa not qualify? There is little powersharing mechanisms in that country and the ANC dominates all organs of state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.41.142.242 (talk) 10:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Thailand

Hi. Mysteriously, Thailand with PR 2 and CL at 3, was marked as "Partly Free", yet India and Indonedia, with the same numbers were listed as "Free". According to Freedom House, Thailand is listed as "Free". I have changed Thailand's listing on the page to reflect this more accurately. I did not change the map, because it is from 2005, as the filename reflects. Should a new map for the 2006 data be made?

A correction - Thailand was rated PR 3, CL 3, "Partly Free" in the survey and the map is correct. --Acntx 19:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
What Survey? The link to the PDF file leads to a 404, so this claim cannot be found. At the FreedomHouse website, I searched through all years on their "Map of freedom" and Thailand has never been listed as "Partly Free". Can you can show me a valid link to the survey that lists it as such? If not, it needs to reflect what is actaully on the FreedomHouse site.
I updated the PDF file link. On the first page of the essay, it notes that Thailand was downgraded from "Free" to "Partly Free" in the 2006 survey. At this link [1], on Page 11, Thailand's declining political rights score is confirmed. Freedom House does not post the detailed country-by-country summaries from its most recent survey until late in the following year and this information is not yet available for 2006. --Acntx 20:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. And thanks to Thaksin For everything else :-/

[edit] Russia

Why is russia not even considerd partly free?

  • The article is somewhat misleading, apparently Freedom House is a neo-conservative organization. Nothing Russia or Cuba can do will put them on good terms with neo-conservatives. Basically, it's more useful as a measurement of agreement with neo-conservative politics than actual freedom. I'm not really convinced that this is a balanced study at all, why is America given top marks even after passing things like the Patriot Act and the alleged voting fraud of the 2004 elections? Oh yeah, FREEDOM!!!! Does this really belong on Wikipedia? Too POV. ≈Superbeatles™ 01:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, it does belong on Wikipedia, even if you or I disagree with it. The organization may be biased, but conservatives would argue that Amnesty International is biased, or CNN, or BBC. These rankings are cited all over Wikipedia. Besides, no one really should edit the rankings, considering its an established list--Thomas.macmillan 13:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


I don't mind having this on wikipedia as long as there are bias warnings all over it. We should also look into getting some other sources that measure similar statistics. I don't claim to be an expert, but in my estimation totalitarian, religious states such as Israel should be considered partly free, along with nations in which certain members of the population don't feel safe due to allegations of election fraud. These might include, America, Briton, and France (Russia is already condidered not free, otherwise it would be on that list). Due to the extensive welfare, and healthcare at first world levels cuba should be partly free, there's no democracy but the system has freed people from extreme poverty.-Oranged

Regarding why Russia is considered unfree, see this: [2] Other nations can be found by changing the drop-down choice.Ultramarine 09:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this from lists of countries as it is a report not a Wikipedia NPOV list of countries.

It is a respected list often used in research on democracy.Ultramarine 19:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. It does not need to have bias tags "all over it." Other articles are not treated like that. If someone has sources that differ from Freedom House, please write it into the criticism section on Freedom House's page. As for it being a conservative organization, I will remind all that it was founded by by liberal lions like Eleanor Roosevelt and has used the same criteria for decades (since before neocons had any influence in D.C. or elsewhere. --Tjss(Talk) 21:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hate speech ban

Most Countries in Western Europe (like Britain), plus some others, like Canada and Australia have bans on hate speech, as well as on some forms of demonstrations and rallies along similar lines. There is a page on Wikipedia that mentions this. Wouldn't Countries with laws such as those be less than entireley free if certain speech is prohibited?205.188.116.9 03:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  • This only covers the rankings given by Freedom House in 2006 according to their own criteria. Those concerns on the qualifications on free speech in some nations (with a specific given example being the illegality in some European nations of Holocaust denial) are expressed in the main Freedom House article. --Kitch 20:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freedom vs Socialist Democracies

I am concerned about the presumption that this article attempts to portray other countries on a equal standing with the United States as "free" Countries. The United States is the only country that its people possess "certain, inalienable rights.

All other countries you have listed as free are led by their governments who "give" their people "Privileges".

Those countries should be listed as Socialist Democracies and or partially free. Not free.

The Only country that should be listed as free and a democratic republic should be the United States ... Even though it is far from what the founders of this country intended. Contributed by Richard Taylor APP, American Patriot Party.

You are free to create your own methodology and ranking and publish it. This article only reports what Freedom House has found in their research. Reserch that has in turn been used by many other researchers.Ultramarine 15:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Rofl. Seems like a joke. Jetro 18:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
A joke indeed

[edit] Editing this page

While understanding that any page on Wikipedia can be edited, I don't really see a need for any serious editing of this page. It isn't really up for discussion, as it is a published list. Formatting is one thing, but any content editing is more or less going to be vandalism.--Thomas.macmillan 04:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Some formatting should be done, the table is not at all in the common format in Wikipedia: it's not sortable, the colors make it quite unreadable, and why split it into regions? AtikuX 03:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkey

Hi there you all! I took Turkey back to where it belongs! From Western Europe to Middle East!

Please don't change it back all you fans of Turkey just because you like it! The country isn't in Europe.

  • No one changed Turkey to western Europe. It was listed as such, however misguided, by the people who made up the list and as such should continue to be listed as western Europe.--Thomas.macmillan 15:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Oh, now i understand. Ok. For a moment I thought, that wikipedians themselves are messing around with Turkey, but ok. I'll fix it myself. Sorry.

I'm not really sure why either of you seem to classify Turkey as the Middle East. While it does share some cultural characteristics with the Middle East, it shares just as many with Western Europe. It is also geographically classified as European, just as Kazakhstan is. Do a little research before you start labeling efforts as "misguided". --Cathenryinc 20:36 5 September 2006

I have done plenty of research. It is an opinion and this is a talk page, not an actual article. Personally, I classify Turkey as more Middle Eastern than western European because of a)geography and b)hundreds of years of cultural history. I think you can classify Turkey, more correctly, as eastern Europe and Middle Eastern. But this is not relevant to the article because Turkey was classified as western Europe by the Freedom House, not me or anyone else on Wikipedia.--Thomas.macmillan 03:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Nations ought to be classified in this list the way that the report classifies them. In this case, the list only classifies them by Sovereign, Related and Disputed. It has groupings for the purpose of comparing numbers of "free", "partly free" and "not free" states, but does not list which states are in which groups. If it does, then it should be grouped that way, and not any other way. --Kitch 20:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The UN classifies Turkey as Eastern Asian: it should be put back where it belongs... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/United_Nations_geographical_subregions.png

  • Regardless of how the UN classifies it, Freedom House classifies it as part of Europe when it groups things by region because they are EU candidates. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=272&year=2006 If we wish the Wikipedia entry to reflect Freedom House's report, it should be left in Europe.

-- 63.138.81.98 21:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Turkey is by no means in Western Europe. It is further from countries like Britain and France than new countries that were originally Russia, which are considered Eastern Europe.

[edit] Changes since 2005

The Freedom in the World 2006 report also shows changes since last year. Shouldn't such changes be noted here, and shouldn't it be mentioned which nations were upgraded and which ones were downgraded?

According to the report, Indonesia and Trinidad and Tobago were upgraded from Partly Free to Free.

Afghanistan, Central African Republic, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon and Mauritania were upgraded from Not Free to Partly Free.

Guyana, The Philippines and Thailand were downgraded from Free to Partly Free.

Only Nepal was downgraded from Partly Free to Not Free. --Kitch 20:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I quite agree. Maybe an "up" or "down" field should be added to the list? Nach0king 12:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geographical Mistakes

Hey there, Germany is Central Europe, not western Europe. And there'd be necessary a category "Southern Europe", being the common term for countries like Italy, Greece, Turkey, Malta, ...

Western Europe is considered to be only those countries in the west of Germany. And there's Northern Europe with the skandinavian countries. Maybe the best solution would be only "Europe" with no further distinctions, as it's the case with "Americas". My german keyboard layout is broken, so unfortunately i can't sign this comment.

As noted previously for Turkey, the country areas are the choice of the freedom house who compiles the list, not Wikipedia.
Here I think the distinction is between those countries in NATO / on the side of America in the Cold War and those who, well weren't. To be honest I don't think this list is appropriate for Wikipedia as it reflects the opinions of a single group, who seem to have an agenda, but for now it is inappropriate to move or reformulate country groupings. --Neo 18:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freedom House and Freedom

I think that the list currently seems to reflect the opinions of a single agency, and therefore wonder whether it can reasonably be called Th. That this is controversial can be seen in the disputes within the comments above.

The question though is what is an appropriate action for this - should the page be moved, for instance to Freedom House; Freedom in the World Index, or sent to AFD?

I'm *probably* in favour of the first option, but willing to change my opinion either way if convincing arguments are presented; however I would welcome input from other before proposing either action. --Neo 22:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The article is not stating that this is the truth, it only describes the report. It does not violate NPOV more than the article about Das Capital. Both articles simply describe reports or books.Ultramarine 09:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem is with the title, adding a "US-based" into the intro, will make the visitor research the controversial Freedom House, before taking the data for granted.--Gerash77 07:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Added a note to see the main article for a discussion of organization (and also it own view on the funding).Ultramarine 15:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what are you trying to say. Could you elaborate on your position before an edit war? --Gerash77 22:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The article should be npov and also present the views of Freedom House regarding funding and that the report is widely used by reserachers. I think it would be better to discus that in the main article. If you insist, I will move all that material here.Ultramarine 22:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think more discussion is needed to find an appropriate title. The findings of a government agency can't be titled "Freedom in the World". I am sure there are other more independent researches that are worthy of this title. I'll put an appropriate tag on it, in hope of finding a consensus on this.--Gerash77 22:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The former title was Freedom in the World 2006 which is the title of the report. We can change it back to that.Ultramarine 22:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Taiwan

The 2005 map has Taiwan as "free," whereas the 2006 map gives it a Level 7 for political freedom and a Level 6 for civil liberties -- i.e., just as unfree as China. This is extremely misleading, since Taiwan's level of freedom did not change significantly between 2005 and 2006. It looks like the 2005 map is treating Taiwan as an independent country, while the 2006 map treats it as part of China. Shouldn't the maps be consistent? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.170.133.115 (talk) 15:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Note that all maps refer to the same report, the 2006 report which deals with the year 2005. But yes, seems to be mistakes regarding taiwan. You can try to contact the creator of the map or download it yourself, correct it, and upload it back.Ultramarine 18:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italy and Venezuela

I updated the status of Italy and Venezuela reflecting the lastest changes. Both got dowgraded - Italy from Free to Partially Free due to Berlusconi's extreme influence over most media and Venezuela from Partially Free to Not Free due to forced shut down of a major goverment-critial TV network. CharonX/talk 00:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you perhaps mixed up the Freedom House "Freedom of the Press" report with their "Freedom in the World" series, which is the subject of this article? Checking their website, Venezuela is indeed show "Not Free" in the "Freedom of the Press" study, but this is not the same as the "Partly Free" rating it is given in the most recent "Freedom in the World", which is what is being listed here. The first would be looking at press freedom specifically, the second at the country overall. I'll revert your change - if I'm mistaken let me know. - David Oberst 00:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC) You are not mistaken.
Oops, you are right. I had gotten the pages mixed up (lesson learned: don't edit Wikipedia when you are tired) CharonX/talk 11:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Previous indexes

It would be much better if this page presented more than just this year's ratings. Dynamics is at least as important as current data. Colchicum 18:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WOW! You guys really know geography!

I mean how can be Turkey, Greece, Italy, Malta, Finland, Cyprus, Norway, Sweden etc. placed in "Western Europe"? Please read some more western doesn't mean south, north or east...

No need to tell us that, explain it to the ones who did the report!That-Vela-Fella 21:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not about geography my friend, it's about cultural and (maybe) political influence. Ok, i have to admit that Turkey may not be the best of examples, but "Greece, Italy, Malta, Finland, Cyprus, Norway, Sweden etc" as you put it all have their roots to Western civilisation, especially if you consider that the very foundation of this culture lies there. Particularly ancient Greece and the Romans.

Anyway this is the view of the Freedom House. Maybe we should introduce a "Criticism" section in order to provide alternatives and voice issues like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.32.166.111 (talk) 20:36, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title change

Because the article is about the Freedom in the World report by Freedom House and not about freedom in the world itself, the title is wrong and misleading. The title should be "Freedom in the World Report by Freedom House", showing exactly what it is. A real Freedom in the World article must have lost of sources and be open for discussion and edit.--ClaudioMB 16:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

True - I would be happy for this to be changed. Pexise 18:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Why not "Freedom in the World Report"? 68.49.245.207 15:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The source of any report is more important than the report itself. If the report has more than one source, than you could take from the title.--ClaudioMB 16:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
If there is no more discussion the title will be changed in couple days.--ClaudioMB 00:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This is the standard way to name books and reports in Wikipedia. We do not write "The Capital by Karl Marx", for example.Ultramarine 13:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
That is the standard way if the name does not conflict with an issue. Like Civilization article that is about human society, anything else with Civilization title must be differentiated, like the article Civilization (computer game). Also Collapse (book) instead of Collapse. Or Capital, where does not go directly to the Capital by Karl Marx. This case is even worse, because the report is about the issue, what could easily mislead people to believe that is an impartial article (because is Wikipedia) about freedom in the world, when it's one single point of view on the issue. A "Freedom in the World" article, where this report is used as one of many sources would be impartial. Here, a title like "Freedom in the World (report by Freedom House)" is suitable.--ClaudioMB 23:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Odd, it kinda makes sense to change it, but I don't see any other (disambiguation) for another similar topic on it. If there was then I'd fully agree to it.That-Vela-Fella 00:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I know there isn't a similar article at this moment, but it does not change the fact the title is wrong. The article is not about freedom in the world, but about the "Freedom in the World" report by Freedom House.--ClaudioMB 05:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Understandably, but wouldn't the person seeing that read the 1st sentence of the article & realize it right away what it's all about? I highly doubt people are getting confused on it as the likes of other ones on here, like Das Kapital or Mein Kampf. I'd go so far as to agree with what was said before, just add in the word REPORT after it. That-Vela-Fella 06:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
More books by Marx: Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, The Civil War in France, or The Communist Manifesto. All of these could be mistaken for something more general if going by the title alone and ignoring the capital letters. But Wikipedia does not add a "by Karl Marx" or "Book" after these article titles.Ultramarine 12:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
If there is any other article title that you feel could cause misunderstanding, you should argue in those articles to change their titles. It does not change the problem here.--ClaudioMB 22:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
You should argue where the naming conventions in Wikipedia are decided that these should be changed. Until then, this article should follow established practice.Ultramarine 22:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

(reseting indentation)
There isn't any convention in Wikipedia that is untouchable, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy WP:BURO. Just read the first paragrapher on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books) "... it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense...". (after here, I will ask to include one more direction to how title a book or report article). Also, in Deciding to disambiguate "Ask yourself: When a reader enters this term in the Wikipedia search box and pushes "Go", what article would they most likely be expecting to view as a result?" . In this case, even though there isn't yet an article for freedom in the world, it is that what people expect to get when then enter that title. Not an article about a report from an organization. If it was a fictional book with that title, it would not be a problem because there is no chance for misunderstanding. But, because it is a report about the subject, then it becomes a misunderstanding since that subject cannot be based on one single source and be unchallengeable - no one could use another source to change any given mark on that article, because the article is about the report and no one could change the report but the source itself. In this way, freedom in the world would be defined by one organization. That's unacceptable. At least, the word report must be included.--ClaudioMB 00:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you underestimate people's ability to understand what they read. But how about "Freedom in the World (report)"?Ultramarine 07:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I know lost of people will read and understand that is a report from one organization, but also there are people that are going directly to the table and accept those marks as balanced and without bias (what's almost impossible since it comes from one single organization funded by one government). "Freedom in the World (report)" helps, even though I still prefer "Freedom in the World (report by Freedom House)" to show that's a one source report. Anyway, this open the title for an article about freedom in the world. Since this discussion has already 6 days and no one else opposes the change, I'll move the article to "Freedom in the World (report)".--ClaudioMB 15:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Awful blue

Why people changed the colouring of the map and the ratings from the red/red-brown to… blue? Come on, redish tones are almost an universal color to alert on concerning or bad situations, while blue or greens are used to indicate good situations. So, if the map is about the freedom (or the lack of) in the world, green or blue should be use to describe more freedom, and reddish tones used to indicate less freedom.

Why would a color really matter on it that much & who says it's "universally" seen that way for red? It was said before that it matches with the colors used on the Freedom House's website map, thus following convention on here also.

[edit] Changing sentence

I think this sentence is not clear enough: "The ratings in this table reflect findings based on global events from 1 December 2005 through 31 December 2006." Since the rating is define by Freedom House, it should be change to something like: "The ratings in this table are define by Freedom House, which says they reflect findings based on global events from 1 December 2005 through 31 December 2006.". How a rating is define is extremely important and should be very clear. The away is written now, sounds Freedom House does not define the rating but just collects from a source.--ClaudioMB 23:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

They do not define the ratings, they have methodology they follow when doing research which then gives the scores.Ultramarine 23:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Then, the methodology used should be explain (how works, who created and sources). The away is written now does not prove anything.--ClaudioMB 23:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
You can read it here.[3] But you are right, this should be expanded in this article, for some reason it is described in the Freedom House article. Will correct this in the coming days.Ultramarine 23:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit]  !! Freedom House employees infiltrated in this talk page...

Use WikiScanner (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/) and put "Freedom House" in the first box... Interestingly it will lead you back to this talk page, plus a handful more... All contributions made anonymously from IP address 63.138.81.98 are written by Freedom House employees... And the common point all these contributions have is that they try to convince us that Freedom House is an independent, unbiased, humanitarian, non-governmental organisation that works for the progress of humanity, while the truth is that it is a 95% US government-funded organisation that has been used as an instrument of propaganda since at least World War II. Schizophonix 10:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Please see my response on the talk page for the main Freedom House Article. I would not say "infiltrated". 63.138.81.98 17:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Not infiltrated, but doing controversial edits. See here--ClaudioMB 23:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I insist you were infiltrated in this page, because you never revealed your status as a FH employee and you were writing about FH in the third person ("they") instead of the first ("we"). This is called astroturfing and it seems to me as an attempt at deceiving the rest of the editors. Schizophonix 13:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

In this sentence "The ratings in this table reflect findings based on global events from 1 December 2005 through 31 December 2006. It is often used by researchers in order to measure democracy and correlates highly with several other measures of democracy like the Polity data series.[3]". What is it? The rating or the findings?--ClaudioMB 03:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

What's so confusing on it? The table is just like what's shown on the map & says the ratings reflect the findings. Thus it is referring to the findings, just like several other measures that are used to determine the democracy of places. At least that's what I understand it to mean. That-Vela-Fella 08:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. It makes sense, even though could be better written. I'll try do it. --ClaudioMB 22:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article should explain the report. Could show the results of the report, but also should explain in a neutral point of view, by an expert on the subject, how that results were found. The way it is now, this article is just a propagation of the report, with only one point of view: the report's creator. So, I'm placing a npov tag until this be solved.--ClaudioMB 04:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. This is just one organizations claims. It doesn't matter whether it's factual or not, but rather one organizations beliefs. Which would translate into the United States beliefs, considering the government funds the program.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 03:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warning at the top of this page

I believe that the warning on the top of the page regarding my participation on this talk page is inappropriate. The details of my affiliation with Freedom House has been discussed in detail on the talk page itself, and users who are concerned with that can read that discussion. I have made a good faith effort to follow the Suggestiong for COI compliance [[4]], and have explained my actions on this page. You will note that the recommended method for other editors to deal with COI does not include posting a message at the top of the talk page. I feel that in particular the language of this warning is inflammatory; the use of the word "infiltrated" implies bad faith on my part where none has been shown, and I do not believe that my comments bear out the statement that I have pushed a pro-FH point of view. I respectfully request that it be removed. Thank you. 63.138.81.98 17:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

That does seem pointless to mention it on the top & also a bit mean spirited for doing that. A topic has already been done with the issue on here (see #21) & having a warning serves no useful purpose anyways. I have thus taken it out & I'll leave it with an administrator if they feel there has to be some valid reason it should be put back. That-Vela-Fella 18:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Right - I've changed the language, but the comment should stay - the fact that you are a FH employee is very important and new editors could miss the discussion about this. Also, the fact that you were not honest about this in the first place and an editor needed to identify you using an esoteric piece of software makes this notice necessary. Pexise 12:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Pexise: WikiScanner is not an "esoteric piece of software" it is a tool that can be used freely by anyone to find if the IPs of anonymous editors are registered to "interested" organisations who use Wikpedia as a means of self promotion. I urge you to use it yourself (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/). Just remember a couple of things 1) Not all edits from interested editors are self-promotional 2) Interested editors can conceal their ID by registering or by editing from a neutral IP e.g. from home. Schizophonix 10:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah - very interesting, you're right, it is easy to use. Well done for spotting that 63.138.81.98 is from Freedom House. I guess my point was that if it wasn't for your initiative, we would still be none the wiser about his/her identity. Although the Wikiscanner is free to use, not everyone knows about it, and it requires some real detective work to find something out like the conflict of interest that was exposed here. Pexise 12:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that that warn should stay. As Pexise said, new editors could easy miss the discussion about it and the employee showed not good faith when he/she fail to warn other editors of his/her conflict of interest. Also, it should be warn that this could happen again, if a FH employee uses a neutral IP. --ClaudioMB 16:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the big issue here? This organization made this ranking, Wikipedia just basically copied it on its page. It seems accurate to me, besides there is nothing in this world which has no bias in it. (74.134.124.3 02:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Taiwan

I noticed that Taiwan has switched back and forth between Taiwan and Republic of China a couple of times over the past few days. Right now it is listed as "Republic of China"... may I suggest that it is listed either as Taiwan (as that is how it is listed in the Freedom of the World report) or else has both names presented- i.e. Republic of China (Taiwan)? I feel like listing it just as "Republic of China" is confusing, as it is almost never referred to that way in common speech, and it is very similar to "People's Republic of China".... If that seems like a reasonable change, someone should make it, as I don't edit this page. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.233.58 (talk) 20:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think it should be called Taiwan (but if others disagree then "Republic of China (Taiwan)" would also seem OK). After all, the purpose of this article (as far as I can tell) appears to be to reproduce Freedom House's rankings of countries. Freedom House's opinions are clearly non-neutral. Not everyone agrees with calling Taiwan/ROC "Taiwan" - but nor does everyone agree with the rankings that FH hands out. Why sanitize the naming, thus obscuring the bias of the rankings? 81.129.130.183 (talk) 23:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
If it makes sense you to, go ahead and change it... We've had the comment up for about a month, and no one has disagreed that it should be listed as Taiwan. I can't change it myself. Thanks! 63.138.81.98 (talk) 15:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Why is "not free" blue?

I thought it would be red or something. I don't know where the CSS is, so could someone change this, if it's needed? ZtObOr 02:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Not Free is blue because Freedom House uses that (well, actually, purple) instead of red on their map. Since this is a reproduction of Freedom House's map, it makes sense to not use red. 63.138.81.98 (talk) 21:33, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
It had also been mentioned above under awful blue. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 01:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The bright blue in the map annoys me as well. In the Freedom house map, "not free countries" are coloured in a "dirty blue", not in the bright blue used in the map. Maybe someone could change it, thus making the map both more "intuitive" and closer to the original map?--Roentgenium111 (talk) 23:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Freedom in the World Release Schedule

There seems to be some confusion about when Freedom House releases its rankings and reports for Freedom in the World. (Note change that says that full reports are not released until one year later for free). So I figured I would clear it up a bit.

In early January, Freedom House releases the scores. They are titled with the current year (in this case, 2008), but cover events from January through December of the previous year (so in this case, Jan 2007-Dec 2007). Because it requires a good deal more copy-editing and layout work to prepare hundreds of pages of reports for release than the score list does, the reports typically come out in late spring or early summer. As soon as they are ready, they are posted, free for everyone to view, on the Freedom House website. The printed version of the book, avalible for purchase, usually comes out a few weeks later, as it takes more time to print a book than upload website content.

I think the most accurate way to phrase this paragraph would be "Detailed descriptions of all nations from the previous year's edition can be found online in Freedom in the World 2007. Please note that while the rankings below are from the current year's edition of Freedom in the World, detailed reports for 2008 will not be avalible online until late spring/early summer." Once the reports come out, this can be revised.

Thanks! 76.111.114.169 (talk) 02:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC) ← Is above mentioned Freedom House employee posting from out of the office.