Talk:Free energy

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Note that some possibly relevant page history is located at Free energy (disambiguation).--Commander Keane 02:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Gibbs energy

Free energy is a superceded terminology. See Talk:Gibbs_free_energy and IUPAC definitions. 128.250.204.118 00:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The IUPAC recommendation is that this parameter be called either the Gibbs energy, or the Gibbs energy function. 134.193.168.75

[edit] No Disambig cleanup

Articles related to "free energy" clarified and are articles which treat this item; The MoS breaks down here; MoS:DAB#Break_rules) 134.193.168.75 13:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Each item needs to be shorter. I am not advocating that it be made as short as the examples on MoS:DAB. See [1], for example. I would do it myself but I do not think I have sufficient knowledge in the subject. —Centrx→talk • 20:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Although most DAB pages are very brief, and that is as it should be, I really really do like the longer version of this page. This is in part because "Free energy" has a lot of cranky, pseudoscience baggage associated with it. The longer form of this page helps keep things in perspective. If DAB page rules are a problem, maybe we can move this page to Free energy (overview) or something like that? linas 14:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't get the whole DAB excuse. I think Free energy is more then worthy of it's own page? What is going on? A page with just links is very nice but where is the link to free energy article now? Or is the reader confused what I mean with free energy? The pages that link here suggest there should be a page here about the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=Free+energy&namespace=

Like John_Hutchison#Quantum_batteries makes mention of free energy. Should I pretend I don't know what it means? The Steven_M._Greer article mentions free energy. There is no confusion about the subject only a lot of negativity with heroic mass deletion of everything.

Here is a whole wiki about free energy. [[2]]

We have the history of perpetual motion machines where it is noted that it is also known as the history of free energy and history of over unity machines

But where is the article about today's free energy and today's perpetual motion machines? My problem is that I'm trying to write this free energy suppression article.

Arthur Rubin noted that linking to the free energy page was a self reference.

So, why not have any information about free energy on the free energy page?Go-here.nl (talk) 02:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Because you've invented most of the new "definitions". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. John_Hutchison#Quantum_batteries doesn't mention "free energy". It mentions zero-point energy.
  2. Steven_M._Greer does mention "free energy", but only in the sense of what is suppressed by free energy suppression. The links could easily be fixed to point to that article instead.
  3. http://peswiki.com/ doesn't mention "free energy", at least on the home page.
  4. History of perpetual motion machines is probably in error in stating history of free energy. I see no source for the statement, nor do I believe it.
Your problem is that you are trying to write the free energy suppression article as if it were real. No credible (not to mention, reliable) evidence has been presented to support that. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definition mistakes and violation of neutrality

The energy from fantastical forces considered perpetual motion. These devices utilize quantum vacuum perturbation, quantum vacuum energy, rotating magnets, as well as some purported methods to crack hydrogen

That is not true. These things are not perpetuum mobile. Perpetuum mobile has its definition, and this is not it.

I am jumping through the articles and I see that paranoia and pseudoscience is everywhere. Please clean this up.

Endimion17, 1:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Error

There is a big big mistake. Free means "gratis" and "free source". Free energy, can mean also:

  • Gratis energy, the conception contained in the article.
  • Free source energy at low cost or at high cost. This is the conception intendently forgot in the article.

--Altermike 18:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pseudoscience

"Theoretical science about energy which would allow perpetual motion." this is pseudoscience --83.135.248.40 14:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Pseudoscience is University brain death. Matt Groening found the perpetual motion engine for Lisa, fom my site atlink title.

[edit] Definition of Free Energy

"A perpetual motion machine, creating a source of energy that would violate the First law of thermodynamics."

For a start this statement is false. A perpetual motion machine is not free energy. A perpetual motion machine is a closed loop system that conserves the energy within the system with high efficiency. There are many perpetuum mobiles and none of them are considered to be free energy, nor do they violate the first law of thermodynamics.

I believe the author of the post was refering to so called "overunity systems" that many argue violate the first law of thermodynamics. Though the scientific comunity has yet to recognise a device that can effectively extract energy from quantum vacuum fluctuations (note. It IS recognised as being possible by the scientific community) there are many devices that use the same principle and work completely within the laws of thermodynamics, though still generate more energy than the energy required to run them.

The best example is a Heat Pump, such as found in refrigerators and air conditioners. It is very common for a heat pump to generate more than 3 times the amount of energy in heat than the required energy from the operator to run the pump. This is free energy that can be used to heat houses at a fraction of the cost of burning fuel.

The best way to describe this would be with Coefficient of Performance, often abbreviated to COP, COP 1 being unity and anything over COP 1 (eg. COP 3 for the above described heat pump) would be considered overunity.

Therefore, I would like to suggest that the above quote is removed as it does not have any merit nor justification.

Furthermore, I would like to suggest that an additional, universally accepted definition of Free Energy is included on this page. I would suggest the following statement:

"A device that outputs more energy than the energy required by the operator to power the device (eg. Heat Pumps). Often refered to as COP>1 (Systems with a Coeefficient of Performance greater than 1) or Open Systems where the additional energy is extracted from an external source other than the operator."

This statement is verifiable, and I will provide sources if neccessary.

Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buddha83 (talk • contribs) 07:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide such a source? Oli Filth(talk) 18:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
On which point? Buddha83 (talk) 19:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The definition you suggested above. Oli Filth(talk) 20:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
If you like. Would reputable websites do, or do you require published literature? This information is already on wikipedia, though I wouldnt use that for a source! haha! Buddha83 (talk) 20:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess anything reputable is fine. The reason I'm hesitant on this definition is that (from a scientific point of view, rather than colloquial), it just doesn't sound that plausible as a recognised definition! Rather, it sounds a little to close to the Tom Bearden school of silliness. Although to disclaim, I'm no expert, so I'm happy to be wrong. Oli Filth(talk) 21:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I find it difficult to respond to that statement. First I would like to point out that your opinion of the area of research Tom Bearden is involved in is only your opinion, and wikipedia is intended to be a source of unbiased information. I have my own views about the subject, but I want to keep this impartial. References : http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/generate_your_own_energy/types_of_renewables/ground_source_heat_pumps http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=169&PgId=1023 The main reason I think the statement I provided should be included is simply as a replacement for the inaccurate statement already present. Perpetual Motion is by definition Motion that is Perpetual; not free energy as no energy can be extracted from it. And free energy by definition is Energy that is Free; energy that the operator doesn't pay for. Heat pumps are a perfect example of this principle, though any open system device, such as a solar panel, windmill, hydroelectric dam, etc provides Free Energy because the operator pays less than the output of the device. In fact, Perpetual Motion and Free Energy are complete opposites because Perpetual Motion requries a closed system and Free Energy requires an Open System. Buddha83 (talk) 21:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You're absolutely right that what I said above is my opinion, but please also note the Wikipedia policy of WP:Undue weight. A fringe theory denounced by the majority of scientists who care to partake in a rebuttal should generally not be given the same level of exposition as "mainstream" science. However, my reference to Bearden above was purely illustrative, I didn't mean it to be the focal point here!
Back to the main point. Neither of the two references you provided above appear to mention the term "free energy" as far as I can see. As far as perpertual motion is concerned, the current Wikipedia article on it doesn't agree on your assessment, I'm afraid. However, either way, I'm not sure that dictionary-like definitions are suitable for a dismabiguation page (per WP:DAB), so I've removed all items that don't explicitly link to articles that include "free energy" in the title. Oli Filth(talk) 22:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I am glad you have at least removed perpetual motion. Though if you simply want a page which has heat pumps refered to as free eenergy here is an article from the telegraph : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/06/19/nosplit/eagroun319.xml.
I do not feel the definition I provided had undue weight, as it refers to systems that are commonly accepted, and I believe that definition would be accepted universally. Though I do see where you are coming from. Buddha83 (talk) 23:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)