Talk:Fox hunting/Archive 2

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Contents

bloodsport

Why is this word in scare quotes? Surely it is a bloodsport, and I don't think its proponants would deny this - whether that is a good thing or not is a matter for debate, but I would not have thought that this term was disputed? Trollderella 03:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect its proponents might well deny it. MikeHobday 16:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think so - can you provide any examples of fox hunting advocates denying that it is a bloodsport? Trollderella 19:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Hunting supporters would obviously deny it because the word is a negatively loaded one which attempts to place an over-emphasize on a particular viewpoint towards the sport. In the same way that rugby players object to their sport being called a "bully's game" or names like "mugby" or "thugby". It's kind of like the old freedom-fighter vs. terrorist argument. The word is undoubtedly a derogatory one and so should be handled carefully just like the millions of other cases of derogatory names that exist for all types of things. Canderra 00:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Hear hear. Bloodsport is derogatory and hence npov. Sander123 09:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Of course it's not derogatory - it's obviously and factually in that category. Can you back that up with any sources suggesting that this word is inappropriate? Trollderella 10:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Bloodsport" is usually used as a derogatory term for brutal forms of unregulated fighting and animal baiting. It is considered derogatory by one side (the hunters) and is generally only found in anti-hunting literature. The word simply reflects POV, and gives no useful information. "Hunting" already implies the possibility of death for the hunted animal.David A. Flory 06:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone provide any evidence for the idea that it is derogatory? I have only ever seen it used as a factual term to describe sports that involve the spilling of blood. I have seen no evidence to back up the idea that it is derogatory. No dictionary I have ever seen implies that either. Trollderella 05:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

As Canderra pointed out, a term can be lexically accurate and still POV. Hunting groups don't use the term; anti-hunting groups do. Hunters would argue that the term falsely suggests that point of hunting is to shed blood for sport, rather than to test one's riding, see the dogs' breeding and training in action, experience the excitement of the chase and the uncertainty of whether the fox will be caught or get away... Anti-hunting groups would say this is rubbish. It's a matter of POV. David A. Flory 04:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's intended to be derogatory. Don't you remember all the anti-hunting websites in the UK a few years ago which were decorated with dripping blood across the top of each screen (some still are)? The whole point is to emphasize 'blood'. One might as well insist that using 'bloodmeat' instead of 'barbecue' in Australia isn't POV. David A. Flory is correct. Flatterworld 15:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Bloodsport isn't derogatory. Its the way such sports are categorised. I disagree hunting already says that; many people go fishing but don't kill the fish. Catching butterflies in nets is a form of hunting even.--Him and a dog 14:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I just looked it up at http://dictionary.cambridge.org and there is no suggestion it is derogatory. 81.154.181.177 (talk) 11:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Fox hunting regulation

I have removed this text from the article:

Since the hunting ban was passed in England, many hunts have reported an increase in membership and noted an increase in the number of foxes suspected of being killed as foxes are accidentally killed by dogs while following artificially laid trails [13]. Fox hunting supporters claim around 320,000 people (their highest recorded number) turned up to fox hunts on Boxing Day, 2006 [14].

While such claims are made, there is no evidence cited to suggest that the claims have any basis in fact. This article should be more than a series of claims if it is to be encyclopaedic. MikeHobday 06:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that was an imporant point and it was well cited. They opinion of opponents of fox hunting is encyclopedic as long as it is put in proportion and is properly cited. I npoved the section you disaproved and restored it. Do you like it better now? Sander123 08:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I have made a separate edit, leaving this text in for now. I am concerned, however, that claims (which have certainly been made) are included without the slightest evidence that the claims are true. Not an easy balance, I admit. MikeHobday 17:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Pest control

I have twice removed this text from the article:

In Australia where foxes were introduced for sport, native animal popluations of a "critical weight range" have been very badly effected by foxes. Some state governments have offered bountys per fox to help with the problem. In Tasmaina, which until 2001 has been fox free, a large reward of $1000 per fox is offered and $50,000 for information of the introduction. Generally foxes are controlled with baits or spotlighted by farmers (where by the eyeshine signature (from the tapetum in the eye) of foxes, body shape and silhouette are used to identify).

Without evidence that this problem is addressed by hunting foxes with pack of hounds in Australia, this cannot be a supporting argument for fox hunting. Perhaps it should be in the spotlighting article instead? MikeHobday 09:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's factual information, and not divided into silly "for" and "against" parts. The history of fox hunting in Australia has led to spotlighting and is part of the history of fox hunting in Australia. I cannot see why you are so eager to leave out any mention of it. —Pengo 07:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
1. Read the opening sentence of the article. It is about "a form of hunting in which trained dogs pursue Red Foxes". It is not about spotlighting. 2. Read the section which was being editted. Silly or not, it is divided into for and against sections. MikeHobday 07:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
1. I never said it wasn't, and I've already addressed that. 2. Contrasting fox hunting with dogs to the more practical "spotlighting" form of "pest control" is completely relevant to the section, whether you consider it a "for" or an "against" point. 3. You can move a section rather than deleting it if you consider it in the wrong place. 4. Please don't bite the newcomers, such as the original contributor. —Pengo 13:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I've re-added a section on pest control, for the reason that the hunting of foxes with firearms in Australia is referred to as "Fox Hunting", and it is practiced as a sport (by calling foxes in with a fox whistle or spotlighting them). Granted, it doesn't have the attendant pomp and circumstance of English fox hunts, but the reality is that in this part of the world, foxes are hunted with firearms, not dogs, and it is still considered both a sporting pursuit AND a form of pest control. I have, however, deliberately left out references to baiting or poisoning foxes, as it doesn't really qualify as "hunting" (or even "sporting") in the traditional sense of the word. --Commander Zulu 08:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Bounties for fox hunting

Hey MikeHobday, I don't understand your rv comment. I suppose we agree that State sponsored fox hunting is in itself a valuable addition to this article. How can we improve the section? Perhaps you object to the pov or the place in the article, maybe lack of cites? Bye, Sander123 09:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

My concern is this. That the section is about arguments used for hunting foxes with packs of hounds, not about whether foxes are pests. As far as I am aware, the very real problem about foxes in Australia, and the spotlighting etc. that takes place, is not used by anyone as an argument for hunting foxes with hounds. The issue of foxes in Australia is already covered at red fox and could be covered under invasive species or pest control. But this argument is not used (as far as I know) by anyone campaigning for foxes to be hunted with packs of hounds in Australia. What are the main techniques used in Australia for this pest control? MikeHobday 12:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

As i SAID main techniques used in Australia are baits and shooting. and perhaps this bounty, My problem is the confusion of the word fox hunt, MANY MANY austalians who go out to KILL (pest) fox spp would say they are "fox hunting". AS i also said below, there is harldy a tradition of fox hunting in asutralia AT ALL. I had never heard of it, and its not like im out of the loop, duck hunts are a HUGE issue here ever autumn, Fox hunting (else where is reported well. BUt not the hound fox hunt. And as i grew up in fox territoys ( ie the country) i feel i should know. Your revsion seems POV : "indeed that was the cause of the problem!" arn't we suposed to be unbiased, neither good nor bad???? Problem or not. Cilstr 06:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for inserting text in a more appropriate place. This article is about "a form of hunting in which trained dogs pursue Red Foxes". not about spotlighting. MikeHobday 07:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I've changed the introduction to reflect the addition of the new information. Sander123 09:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"Variation: Drag hunting" is mentioned in the artical, you havn't taken it upon your self to remove that but yet, it is a from that which trained dogs DO NOT pursue Red Foxes. I thought the issue would be the of the foxes, and perhaps their welfare and that of the dogs and horses. The whole issue, not some (polical) agenda some have. NOt that i am pro hunt. i am most certainly NOT. (i mostly hate ebing reverted with out disscusion) (3 hours!!). Cilstr 15:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Incidently, how many active fox hunt clubs are there in australia? And whom is running the anti campain?? They are being very quiet... (perhaps because foxes(and cats) are eating our natives)Cilstr 16:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Pest control

I recently made an edit to the one sentanace section "pest controll". ONe sentance!- hardly encolpedia worthy.. And yes i am annoyed my addtion was reverted with out a message to me. ( its on my watch list but wikipedia watch list only shows recent edits - not the ones to do with ,me....)

I agree. There is 1 sentence for the "pest control" argument and 4 against in that section. The fact that a fox will remove its prey after killing it has no standing in this context. The mere act of killing makes it a pest. Ipankonin 08:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

IN summation., 1) one sentance BEGGS to be elaborated on! 2) Further when one mentions "Fox hunting" to an australian- they will talk to you about SPOTLIGHTING and pest control, NOT the hunt with hounds, thus ( as an international encylopedia ) needs to be elaborated on. 3) UNtill i did a quick look up i (as an australian the grew up in the country regions had not ever heard of the so called sport (with hounds) ever occuring in australia. It seems there are about 6 clubs in australia- not a huge deal. I think is vitally important to mention the devestation that foxes do in australia - if you are to lump australia in with the rest of the fox hunting nations. eg "PM - Tasmania's fox hunt begins" :talking about shooting, www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s351581.htm Cilstr 06:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Cilstr, I'm sorry if you feel hard done by. But Wikipedia does not insist that changes to people edits are notified via a talk page. Indeed, this would slow down change inordinately. This is why comments in edit summaries tend to be found acceptable. Please rememebr also that, when we edit Wikipedia, we tick a box to indicate our agreement with the statement, 'If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.' Thanks for your contributions to our encyclopedia, and I hope that you will continue to edit boldly!. MikeHobday 08:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Fox nicknames....Tod?

From the article....

"The fox, or "Tod," as it is known in the British sport..."

Charley, Charles, Reynard, Red Rover - I've seen and heard these names used, but Tod? Can anyone provide more info on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IanW (talk • contribs) 11:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

See The_Tale_of_Mr._Tod or The_Fox_and_the_Hound_2 for example. MikeHobday 18:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Recipes?

I found this english recipe for Fox Pasta. I wonder if we could put it in this listing -as it has to do with fox hunting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/4853388.stm

That's disgusting. That'd be like eating a small dog (or a big rat). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.142.218 (talk) 03:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The disgusting thing is eating animal flesh at all, imo. -- Librarianofages 03:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Both dogs and rats are part of the diets of many people around the world. --Michael Johnson 03:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, so are human children, it's all the same anyway. -- Librarianofages 04:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Now that comment is just offensive, unnecessary and untrue. --Michael Johnson 04:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
No, you're being speciesist, it is true that people still eat other people in the 21st century and it's also true that its just as wrong to kill a fox or a dog, or a child. -- Librarianofages 04:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
No it is you that is being speciesist. Why is it any less moral for me to eat a shark than a shark to eat me? --Michael Johnson 04:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Now you're being silly, how many sharks eat humans as to humans eating sharks? Are we naturally in their territory? no. Furthermore, what do sharks have to do with dogs, foxes and human children? -- Librarianofages 04:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

How many humans eat children? Besides I thought we were talking about speciesm, do sharks matter less than foxes and dogs? And yes plenty of people spend time in sharks territory, and they do get eaten, --Michael Johnson 05:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

We are talking about speciesism, sharks matter no more or less than dogs, foxes or humans. Besides, sharks don't eat humans for food, in the instances that sharks have attacked humans, it is as a case of mistaken identity. -- Librarianofages 05:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Sharks do eat humans, as do crocodiles, pythons, and large cats. That we have hunted populations to the point of extinction means these events are unusual today, but that is not the point. --Michael Johnson 05:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
No, it's got nothing to do with the fact that humans have murdered many animals, rather it relates to you not understanding why humans get attacked by wild animals. You're bringing up trivial details that are only vaguely related to the concept of speciesism. I'm not going to discuss this any further, if you can't understand that both humans and animals are equal in right to life, then you are a speciesist, and you should get counselling. -- Librarianofages 05:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Sadly I would have to say you have almost no understanding of the predator/prey relationship, and furthermore are clearly unable to defend your philosophical position against even moderate prodding. And I may need counseling, but certainly not for this. --Michael Johnson 08:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with Michael - sharks, crocodiles, big cats and snakes are all designed to eat meat. Back when human population was smaller, humans would have been regularly predated by these animals, although humans were in the rather unique situation of then developing to hunt their predator animals. It is neither wrong, nor undesirable, and the human as an omnivore requires meat protein. Owain.davies 07:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

comment What? you're telling me you live in the stone age?... 21st century buddy. While wild animals may pose a passing threat to modern human animals, they are no great danger and in fact it is the wild animals who are actually now in danger from humans. My philosophical position is fine, however, I don't have time to be constantly arguing with everyone over simple facts. As to Owain. you're wrong, humans neither need or particuarly benefit from the consumption of animal protein, you'll find that plant protein is superior for a number of reasons, while I won't go into specifics, suffice to say that you can decrease the chances of getting numerous different types of cancer and life threatening disease by abstaining from the consumption of meat. Perhaps you would benefit from doing some proper reading on the health, environmental and social benefits of a vegan lifestyle. -- Librarianofages 15:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I am surprising well read on the supposed benefits (much of it back-rationalisation for a moral choice) and negative implications, and it is very hard to be a healthy vegan without supplements. As for philosophical positions, i can't think of a less defensible position than suggesting that the 95% of people in world who eat meat need counselling! Owain.davies 18:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
There are indeed many rational arguments against hunting animals, cruelty to animals, and on the base of environmental sustainability or health against eating meat. These arguments particularly apply to first-world city residents, but are not universally applicable. OTOH you claim a moral prohibition against killing any animal, defining it as speciesism, ie assigning different values or rights to beings on the basis of their species. This is a universal dictum, and should not need the support of evidence of the health, environmental and social benefits of a vegan lifestyle. Indeed by arguing that there are rational reasons to change diet you are showing that Humans have characteristics that allow them to make rational choices, and that separates them from other animals, and that it is therefore illogical to assign all animals the "same rights". This is clearly shown by the fact that all other species exhibit speciesism. Thus my question why is it all right for a shark to eat me and not for me to eat a shark? Or to put it another way, why can a lion eat an antelope but not a Massi tribesman? (and no Massi tribesmen no longer live in the stone age). And if the Massi, why not me? Claims that "we know better" may well be true, but show we are indeed different. You are entitled to your philosophical position. You are not entitled to accuse complete strangers of being murderers, cannibals, and of needing counseling. --Michael Johnson 21:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not very hard to be a healthy vegan without supplements these days (10, 20 years ago, you would have a point), most people I know manage fine. I don't need to defend my position, I just suggested to him that if his problem is that he can't get around the fact that murdering others is wrong then he should seek counseling: this was because I was running out of time to discuss, not because of any lack of substance in my argument. If you eat the flesh of another, are you not as good as a murderer? While you might want to continue this little discussion, I don't have time, look at it this way. In the instances where sharks attack humans, again, it is a case of mistaken identity, they generally mistake humans for seals. OTOH, While Massi society has not yet evolved enough to no longer need meat it is not a relevant argument to make as to the validity of eating meat, and no, it is not Okay for a Massi Tribesman to kill any other animal. Thank you for your time, I'm off on a field trip. -- Librarianofages 02:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

So lions are as good as murderers? Enjoy your field trip. --Michael Johnson 03:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow, look at this Franknstein's monster i've created from a single comment! Quite entertaining. Liberarian has some merit to his argument (I guess). However, the whole "eating fleash" statments just sound real ignorant, because your not eating the skin of an animal, but its muscle tissue. Also, Massi don't need to "evolve". Their no more monkey-esqe then some middle-class white vegan. Also, you use the team "kill any other animal. I didn't know you could be an anti-specist & a racist at the same time! Fasinating...

Any way, aslong as people are still paying attention to this article, let me just add that this article should probably mention the crulty not only endured by fox but also the dogs that kill them. After all, training an animal to kill something thats not a usual part of there diet (an probably shares a few chromazoams with) must be mentally damageing to the dogs. And the physical strain they must endure to catch the quarry. I reminds me of the roman ampitheater were they would pit animal against animal, or victorian britain, were they pit a pack of dogs against bear or some other large animal. It all seems very primitive & reminds of the Fox and the hound, which was a sad story... 69.250.142.218 01:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment - You might want to research this a bit rather than vague plaintive views on 'it must be mentally damaging'. More or less any domestic dog will act aggressively towards a fox, it is an instinct, and hunt hounds are just encouraged in this natural behaviour. Owain.davies 06:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
You really ought to see some real hunting dogs (I have personal experience hunting quail with pointers), and how unbelievably excited they get when they realize they are going hunting. You can't blame hunters for getting irritated when their activities are threatened by folks who rely on Disney flicks as primary sources and speculate that animals worry about sharing genetic material with their prey. David A. Flory 07:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I must apologise if you thought that I was being racist, there was no intention there at all. I was talking about the way that they live, not the people themselves, please excuse me! -- Librarianofages 01:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I also took that comment as being racist, but declined to post the same as I thought you were on a field trip. Maybe a little more consideration of the difference between evolution and culture. There is no evidence that evolution has anything to do with a tiny minority view of not eating animals or their by-products. Owain.davies 06:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I speak in the sense that their society is unable to eliminate animal products from their diet due to their hunter-gatherer culture. I did not mean the people themselves, I would also include Inuits, and other indigenous tribes around the world. -- Librarianofages 12:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the logical outcome of eliminating "speciesism" would be extinction. One cannot live without taking space and resources that other living things need to survive. Even a vegan diet requires the obliteration of entire wild populations to make barren, monocultural deserts, where any living thing that would threaten the cash crop is ruthlessly exterminated.David A. Flory 07:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
No thats not true at all, seeing that a vegan diet uses less land than that of a diet which includes meat, as well as water, animal feed (which could be fed to humans), also vegan farmers do not eliminate so called "pests" as they are also sentient. -- Librarianofages 12:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
(1) My Anglo-Saxon culture procludes me from following a vegan diet, as it would lead to social ostrocisation and would necessitate me indulging in ecologically unsound practices, such as the use of imported soya (often GM) and the shipment of foodstuffs further than necessary to satisfy my selfish nutritional needs. Therefore, I would like to claim the same exemption as a Massi or Inuit.
(2) there aren't very many vegan farmers! The vast majority of vegan marked produce only takes ingredients in to account, not production methods (and having spent most of my working life working of food industry product development, i know this to be true), therefore you are contributing the the death of millions of insects every year. Even organic production does not totally preclude the use of all pesticide and pest control methods.
(3) the monoculture statement is true, as the commerical scale production of plants, as it stands at the moment, generally relies on methods such as hedgerow clearance, irrigation and mechanisation. Having said that, if you would like to provide the entire western world with an allotment and a few spare hours a week, i'm sure they'd be happy to help out
Owain.davies 15:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Hunting

Hi all. I have become interested recently in creating or helping to create a possible WikiProject covering Hunting, Shooting, Game animals etc. If anyone is interested, please sign your name at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Hunting. Cheers Greenfinch100 15:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Article title

In order to help bring together some disparate threads in this article, and reduce confusion, i propose changing the article name to "Hunting with hounds" or some similar title, which would enable the expansion of the sections on beagle and stag packs whilst keeping them in a sensible place. We could then create a separate "Fox hunting (shooting)" article to discuss the use of fox hunting in Australia along with lamping etc. and "Fox hunting" itself would become a DAB redirect page.

Most of all, it would allow the arguments (less POV!) on all the related hunting with hounds sports to be laid out in one place without repetition, and move this article towards GA or even FA status.

Any thoughts on this?

Owain.davies 05:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that "Fox Hunting" is the activity's common name; I've never heard it referred to as "Hunting with Hounds" outside the works of Kipling et al. There'd be a significant amount of confusion if the article was split, IMHO. --Commander Zulu 10:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Oppose as per Commander Zulu, there's no problem referring to the separate existing articles beagling and deer hunting. MikeHobday 12:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. In which case it just needs tidying up as it goes off on tangents about coursing, stag hunting etc. Owain.davies —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 16:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree It's absurd to have a section on various quarry animals, as well as a section on drag-hunting, yet have the title 'Fox hunting'. You can always have a redirect entry for Fox hunting (redirecting to 'Hunting with hounds' or more accurately, 'Hunting with scenthounds' as there's also hunting with sighthounds), but it shouldn't be the actual encyclopedia title. I think much of the problem is that MikeHobday is focused on English-style (originally French-style) hunting, and there are no coyotes or bears (or any other predator larger than a fox) in England. This is simply not true in the rest of the world where foxhounds are used for hunting animals other than foxes. There is also the confusion of hunting foxes using other means in other parts of the world, such as lamping. imo that's why this article wanders about so much and strays so far off topic. Flatterworld 01:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment And don't forget to include basset packs with the rest of the scenthounds. Flatterworld 20:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Controversy section

Congratulations to Owain.davies for merging the pro and anti sections so well. As I said above, this was a mess before. I have started to copy-edit, removing some arguments which are frankly irrelevant, but would welcome others to help address and improve this section. Hopefully, we can soon remove the POV tag from the article. MikeHobday 19:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've had to change back of couple of things you put in, as i'm trying very hard to make this in line with WP:NPOV and the use of words like 'dramatic' doesn't serve to create a balanced view. Similarly, using words like 'most activists' is misleading and can probably never by proven. This article needs loads of word to comply with WP:V, but it's taking time, as i'm trying to find neutral sources (not easy on this particular debate). Owain.davies 20:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I asumed you (or someone) would not agree with everything, and am happy to collaborate to the sme ends. MikeHobday 07:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely - the only way to 'fix' contentious articles like this is input from multiple people to remove the biased words (whether intentional or not). Look forward to working with you Owain.davies 17:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality and factual accuracy

Give the large amount of citations now added (although more are needed, admittedly) and the removal of large amounts of POV material, does anyone still feel that the article needs the large tag at the top regarding neutrality and factual accuracy? Personally, i feel we are about at the stage where it can be removed, and any last wrinkles ironed out with citations, with remaining contentious claims (if any???) removed. Owain.davies 12:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I've been tremendously impressed with the improvements to this article in the past year. I have a special interest in the Fox and Fox Hunting from my own research projects, and I would feel comfortable recommending this article as a introduction to the subject. David A. Flory 21:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Agree. With an issue this controversial, doubtless the tag may be needed at some point in the future, but not now. MikeHobday 21:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I'll take that as an agreement to take the tag off. That said, please help by adding relevant citations to the remainder of the article, and i reckon we could have an FA candidate. Owain.davies 06:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hunt staff and attire

I'm assuming these sections are accurate for the US. Because they're not for the UK: Masters are not staff, whippers-in are often voluntary; There is no such thing as members invited/not invited to wear colours. MikeHobday (talk) 18:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Not strictly true, Mike. Masters are usually included in the 'hunt staff', whether paid or not, and it is very much the case that members must be invited to wear colours, and it would be frowned upon to simply turn up in pinques, so the distinction clearly exists, whether you couch it with a term or not. Owain.davies (talk) 18:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Do you have a source for the suggestion that Masters are usually defined as staff? I accept that only certain people can wear coloured jackets, but my point (perhaps badly explained) is that the terminology is certainly not international. I tend to think that section headings should not be geographically-centric. MikeHobday (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
In regard to dress code titles, I'm not sure it matters, as the term is self explanatory. There are two clear dress codes, one by invitation only. The invitation dress code is the right to wear hunt colours. This makes sound logical argument, and it is cited, so I'm not sure what your issue is with it. Also, what would you change it to? Pinques isn't appropriate for all hunts. As for the MFH, he is in charge of the staff, kennels etc. and again, to be the 'boss', you need to be part of the 'company'. If you want to be really pedantic, we could change the title to 'staff and honorary positions', but i feel it loses cadence. Owain.davies (talk) 20:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Other than this article, I can find one single google reference to the phrase "members invited to wear colours." Apologies for assuming you had used a US centric phrase - clearly you made it up yourself. Re: Masters as staff, I think you make my point for me. Someone in charge of the staff is not staff. MikeHobday (talk) 21:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be in one of your less constructive moods today. What is it you'd like it changed to? As for masters, you seem to have a strange definition of staff to my mind, but again, what would you like it changed to. Owain.davies (talk) 21:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Wrong mood? You may be right; certainly my skills of introspection seem off. I'll take your tip, and pack up for the night. Thanks. MikeHobday (talk) 21:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Back in a positive mood! My definition of "staff" relates to employees, which hunt masters rarely are. I will have a go at writing, am sure you will look it over. MikeHobday (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Uncited information

I think it is a generally bad idea to put uncited, potentially controversial information in to an article this contentious, even with the cop out of a fact tag. If you believe it can be cited, then provide the reference, otherwise the article will end up as a mass of POV again. Owain.davies (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Place for this photo in article?

Image:fox_hunting.jpg

Have you tried this site instead? Totnesmartin 14:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Animal rights versus animal welfare

Following Mike's reversion of a change from animal welfare to animal rights as he felt it is pejorative. I have read both Wikipedia pages (and before commenting, i would suggest anyone else does the same) and feel that the original edit was justified by the full descriptions in both articles. My understanding is that animal rights focuses on the concept of 'civil rights' of all animals, such as humans enjoy (such as freedom from being hunted, whereas animal welfare focuses on looking after animals who are under the care of humans. Based on this, an argument about the mistreatment of hounds would be animal welfare, whereas the hunting of foxes is clearly animal rights. I appreciate there may be overlap, but the very well sourced animal rights article makes no mention of pejorative usage, and i have to say i've never considered it to be such. Therefore I have changed back animal welfare to animal rights in the first instance. I would suggest that this is the only sensible option barring substantive changes to the two contribtary articles. Owain.davies 12:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

With respect, that is absolute rubbish. Animal rights focues on the rights of animals (eg not to be killed). Animal welfare focusses on cruelty (defined as unnecessary suffering). There is no restriction in animal wlefare to "kept animals". Arising from the distinction, animal welfare supporters accept necessary suffering and, in some circumstances, killing. For example, many animal wlefare supporters eat meat, wear leather etc. The opposition to fox hutning is not that it kills, but that it is cruel: that is causes suffering and that suich suffering is unnecessary. Hence animal welfare, being also the broader term, is appropriate. MikeHobday 08:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
That was my understanding from reading the two articles, if you disagree then i think a good starting place would be for you to edit those articles to be more in line. Also on wikipedia, there is a ring template - Template:alib which covers most the major topics and appears on a number of pages, headed up as animal rights. In either case, i think that both terms apply here, and consequently have put both of them on the page with equal weight, and people can visit wither wikilink to find out more if they wish. Owain.davies 09:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I wish I had the time to edit other articles! Still, Wikipedia does not classify itself as a reliable source! OK, I accept that both terms apply, but not with equal weight. The predominant organised criticism of fox hunting comes from organisations like the RSPCA, IFAW and the League Against Cruel Sports, none of which are animal rights groups. MikeHobday 09:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The RSPCA, IFAW and LACS are very much animal rights groups, whether or not they find that label helpful to their aims. owain davis is correct, and Mike is being quite rude in labeling his explanation 'rubbish'. Bullying will not not tolerated in Wikipedia. Flatterworld 15:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
"The RSPCA, IFAW and LACS are very much animal rights groups". Is this your opinion, or do you have a verifiable source for it? MikeHobday 18:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
You are correct that these organizations are not strictly speaking animal rights groups (i.e. they do not explicitly endorse "animal rights"). However, they resemble explicitly pro-AR groups in their emphasis on the "sentience" and "suffering" of individual animals and their strong focus on regulating human behavior towards individual animals, rather than habitat management and species welfare. I think that the current heading of "animal welfare and animal rights" is a good one, because the two orientations seem to be mixed among the groups that oppose fox hunting. A fox hunter may say that fox hunting is very good for the welfare of foxes in an area, as fox hunters protect nursing vixens and fox habitat, and save weak or sick foxes from a slow death in the wild. The counterargument from groups like the RSPCA emphasises that fox hunting is cruel to the individual fox being hunted. The implied argument is that one must respect the fox's individual interest in not being hunted.David A. Flory 13:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I fear that you juxtapose animal rights and conservation, as if there is no intellectual space in between. Are those arguing for good treatment of farmed animals (against veal crates, for example) or those who supported the UK's Wild Mammals (Protection) Act 1996 which banned the kicking (for football) of hedgehogs automatically animal rights because they are focussing on individual animals? Why can an animal welfare supporter not be concerned about cruelty to individual animals? MikeHobday 18:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem with this discussion is that there is a continuum of positions within the animal welfare/rights field, and it is difficult to draw a line where one stops and the other begins. However at the extremes it is easy to draw a distinction - animal welfare starts with a concern with "unnecessary" cruelty to animals, while animal rights ends with all animals having rights to "life, liberty & happiness" similar to that of humans. But all these are primarily concerned with the individual animals, a concern for the fate of a species represents an interest in conservation. While many people with an interest in animal welfare and rights also have an interest in conservation, and visa versa, animal welfare and rights positions can and often do conflict with conservation. --Michael Johnson 21:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)