Talk:Four Quartets

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Well, here it is. Very polishable and perfectible, but I think this poem requires a long article. It may not be Eliot's most important (The Waste Land has influenced XXth Century Literature much more), but it is what he considered his masterpiece. Anyway, hope you like it. Pfortuny 15:40, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The article claims there is Buddhist thought and symbolism in Four Quartets. Where? I fear the author may have confused it with The Waste Land, which was composed in a time closer to Eliot's Sanskrit studies at Harvard and includes a section titled "The Fire Sermon." There is, as far as I can tell, no Buddhist content in Four Quartets. However, there is Hindu thought, for The Dry Salvages aludes to the Bhagavad Gita.

I mistook Hindu thought for Buddhism due to my little knowledge... :(. I'll change the word. Pfortuny 20:43, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

There is some Buddhist influence in Four Quartets (see TSE and Mysticism by Paul Murray), but the reference to Krishna in The Dry Salvages is clearly to the Hindu Bhagavad Gita. I would be happy to try to make the change, but I'm also happy to leave it to an expert - Agingjb 17:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I've changed the word "Buddhist" to "Hindu", Agingjb 14:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] References to Christianity

"Burnt Norton is a deep meditation on the meaning of time and its relationship with human beings and the Christian meaning of Redemption", Wikipedia

How can you possible know this?. For instance, I could equally say; Burnt Norton is a deep meditation on the meaning of time and its relationship with human beings and the Buddhist meaning of Dharma. I do believe the Wiki author is merely demonstrating his own biases.

"reflecting his devotion for the Church's teaching concerning poverty and detachment"

Same again, how could you possibly know what he was thinking when he wrote those lines.

"The poem starts again with .. with a clear parallel of Ecclesiastes 3:1-9:"

Enough already, are you trying to make converts of us all. How about just reading the work for its own sake, or getting out that BBC Audio book of it. You don't have to analyze the poem to death, you know .. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emacsuser (talk • contribs) 18:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Four Quartets & Christian Mysticism

The article mentions that as well as Eastern religion and philosophy The Four Quartets shows evidence of Eliot's interest in Christian mysticism. I find it very interesting that, characteristically, we find his Eastern references more worthy of exploration than the Western (NB this is not a comment on the article, I'm talking about the critical world etc). I have known this poem for almost half my life and am surprised that no-one has ever really probed the depths of its profusion of esoteric Christian images - the Rose Garden is a central metaphor in both Christian Alchemy and Rosicrucian mysticism as are images such as those in the final lines:

'All shall be well/ And all manner of things shall be well/ When the tongues of flame are infolded/ Into the crowned knot of fire/ And the fire and the rose are one'

There is a fascinating study still to be written which really plumbs the depths of the esoteric Christianity of this poem and its use of images of transformation, harmony and the still centre. Someone should analyse it via Jung's Psychology and Alchemy. We forget that Eliot's central poems all use these images - the Grail Quest in The Waste Land, the images of mystical death and resurrection in Ash Wednesday. His work is steeped in this Christian mysticism and yet we probably know more about the influence of Hinduism and Buddhism in his work. More syncretism please!

Also, I absolutely agree with the original poster - this may not be his most influential poem but it is his masterpiece and (in my mind anyway) his greatest. The man was a genius. ThePeg 13.7.2006

A useful source might be: T.S.Eliot and Mysticism by Paul Murray - ISBN 0-333-61406-2, Agingjb 17:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Another: The Composition of Four Quartets by Helen Gardner - ISBN 0-571-11504-7 Agingjb 09:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-standard indentation

Why is the first papragraph of each section indented with a ':'?? This looks strange to me, and is not part of standard style in Wikipedia. Am I missing something?? Stumps 13:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotation issues

T.S. Eliot's estate is infamous for prohibiting the quotation of his poetry. Many academic projects were abandoned when they could not get the estate's permission. The amount of text quoted in the article now is far beyond fair use (which much precendence [citation needed] suggests is only a single line of poetry or less), and we need to trim it. CRCulver 22:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Well it's a long time since I studied Eng. Lit. but I find this claim very surprising. Linuxlad 12:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

See the Eliot estate's refusal to allow the text of Stravinsky's "The Dove Descending" to be printed with the record. CRCulver 12:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Um, yes, but that hardly sounds like a single line! Bob aka Linuxlad 13:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The Eliot estate has indeed been draconian about use of his poetry at times, though honestly, nowhere near as difficult to deal with as some authors' estates. (Stephen James Joyce comes immediately to mind.) That said--I work for a scholarly journal in literature and fair use, as we deal with it, means one single line or up to ten percent of a work, whichever is greater. The single-line clause is important in dealing with incredibly short pieces (Emily Dickinson's, for example). I'd have to count lines; the Four Quartets are pretty long, but still, I think we're well over ten percent in this article. PoetrixViridis 16:40, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OR

Besides the use of excessive quotation, the article has another major problem, namely original research. Many of the assertions of what Eliot was writing about or the supposed connections between the poems are presented as if they came from the personal interpretation of the editors. We need to cite all discussion of the poems to formally published commentaries. There are plenty, so it shouldn't take much work. CRCulver 16:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use

I'm afraid I don't know how to reply within the section in question, so I'll put this in another (new) question.

Putting aside the citation issue raised, the use of small bits of the long poems within the body of the article is exactly what the fair use (or, in the UK, fair dealing) exceptions to the copyright holder's exclusive rights are meant for.

The Eliot Estate is certainly famous for their ferociousness with which they administer their rights. But don't allow this to mean that they have more rights as a result. In my opinion the amount and nature of the use is well within fair use allowances and the Eliot Estate (or rather, Faber & Faber, who hold the rights), should they choose to challenge the use, would have a hard time proving that a four-factor fair use analysis would weigh so heavily to their side so as to cause a finding that the use was not fair.

In other words, they'd have no case.

To help frame my point, I'll mention that I own a rights and permissions agency which deals with these kinds of permissions questions all the time.


MORE ON FAIR USE: I don't know where the poster above got the idea that fair use is limited to a single line of poetry(!). I would suggest familiarizing yourself with matters on which you choose to pronounce in public forums.

The Copyright Act says: Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include-- (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

That fair use can be limited to a single line of poetry may be read in the Chicago Manual of Style, among other places. Also, while the United States has a seemingly generous explication of fair use, the UK does not, and WP tries to cover both systems. CRCulver 00:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Focus

There's a lot in this article about spirituality, but very little about the presence of WWII in the poem, which is an important backdrop, to say the least. Even in terms of mysticism, much more could be said. Overall, I feel like a lot of the commentary overreads, or at least limits its interpretation to one idea when multiple ideas should be invoked. Not that what's there is wrong, just that there's often much more going on than this article mentions. I'm hesitant to take on a massive revision of an article myself, since I'm a grad student & therefore both busy & not much of an authority yet but. . . it seems like this could use it. PoetrixViridis 16:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


The WW2 thing is a very good point. Eliot talked about the emotional affect of the war on himself and the rest of the country of war breaking out, causing him to turn in on himself and reexamine everything. In many ways the Four Quartets is an attempt to enter the heart of darkness of that time and reemerge with some message of hope. There are copious references to the War - the air raid imagery of Little Gidding, the 'incandescent terror' of the Dove Descending etc. Worth exploring, Viridis. Thank you. As for citing all the different interpretations, well that would be almost impossible! ThePeg 11:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] External Links

If you have any interest in reading some fantastic hypertext commentary on the Four Quartets or adding your own thoughts to the text as it appears on TheFinalClub.org, go to http://www.thefinalclub.org/work-overview.php?work_id=29. There is also a thoughtful and authoritative essay on the Four Quartets as well as the texts and commentary for hundreds of other public domain books and poems. Andrewmagliozzi (talk) 19:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)