Talk:Four Noble Truths

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Contents

[edit] Is Buddhism Pessimistic?

Because of its focus on suffering Buddhism is often called pessimistic

I thought people say its pessimistic because of the idea of nirvana = nothingness. that the happy cure is to cease to exist.

Plasticlax

I find the idea of suffering never reaching cessation much more pessimistic than the idea of reaching the end of suffering (even if conciousness has to cease with it). The Buddha said that he does not only talk of happiness with reference to happy feeling - but any kind of happiness whatsoever. Elsewhere he concisely states: Not to suffer is happiness Bhikkhusilaveda 02:04, 24 June 2006

[edit] Simplicity

Though I am sure that this was a great article, I had some trouble understanding some of it. Maybe if someone who understands it could make a Simple English version?

I have tried to make the intro more accessable, but I have not attempted to put the FNTs into more simple english because I don't wan't to just type out my opinion - rather I prefer to qoute scripture. Even quoting an authoritative scholar's opinion is troublesome because I would then have to quote the counter-interpretation. I hope the article is a bit better, but I aggree that it needs more clarifying.... hard to do without putting some opinion in there :o\ Bhikkhusilaveda 08:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange...

In one of the paragraphs, someone has placed BUDDHA BUDDHA BUDDHA...etc. I have tried to remove it, yet I cannot find the text (or indeed some of the paragraphs...) in the editor...so I appeal to someone else to remove it.

EDIT: And now the paragraphs are gone! This may explain why I couldn't find them, but is it really correct to remove them entirely?

cicero225 05:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Statement of the Noble Truths

I like the article. A very abbreviated version of the noble truths is :

 All life is suffering. 
 Suffering is caused by desire. 
 To eliminate suffering, eliminate desire. 
 To eliminate desire follow the Eightfold Path.

I think this has a simplicity that is memorable and appealing, and is worth including in the article

I agree something along these lines needs to be included. I came to this page looking for what the Four Noble Truths are, but all I found was a dogmatic and exclusive interpretation. --FearedInLasVegas 11:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


The Four Noble Truths all have the number 1 on this page. I do not know how to change that. A minor chage would be useful. I am new and do not understand how to set this up as a new topic yet. --Jso456 18:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The useful comments above are a nice way of saying that the first body paragraph is as clear as a brick. Like Feared, I was looking for the Truths simply stated with much clarification, but what we have here is a gloss describing what each Truth is about, with a technical term, some commentary in a quote block and then some more commentary in italics below. Part of the problem is that the secondary commentary (I'll reiterate that someone unfamiliar with the topic of the article will not have found an actual statement of the 4 Noble Truths yet) is spliced with the numbered list, so each is listed as the First Noble Truth!
Callowschoolboy 19:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, I took the plain English statements above and incorporated them into the list in italics, pulled all the commentary for each Truth together (unitalicized), changed the list back to a numbered list, and cut a few phrases. The commentary is hit or miss: some of it is very helpful for non-experts to understand by, but other parts are total fluff. There is still some left if anyone wants to cut it out or modify it into useful statements. We might also consider just using the technical term as the first word, since the simple statement and especially the commentary make it clear that, for instance, the first Truth is about "The existence of suffering." - Callowschoolboy 15:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misinformation

The Buddha was enlightened near the Neranjana River, not the Ganges. Bhikkhusilaveda 03:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarity

It is the remainder less fading away and cessation of that same craving Is this the best wording? What exactly does "remainder less fading away" mean? Xyut 09:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Pali compound term is asesavirāganirodhā and translating this as "remainderless fading (away) and cessation" seems to be common -- for instance, Bodhi is quoted as using this translation in this current article for SN 56.11; Thanissaro does it, e.g., in his translation SN 12.2; and Harvey does it, e.g., in his translation of SN 56.11.
Nonetheless, you might find helpful the Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary's translation of the word asesa: "not leaving a remnant, without a remainder, all, entire, complete ... entirely, fully, completely ...." In other words, it appears that asesavirāga could also be translated more simply as "complete(ly) fading away."
I hope this might help some. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 06:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Four Ennobling Actions

Stephen Batchelor, 'the heretic', in his book Buddhism without Beliefs, made an excellent point -- often lost -- that the Four Noble Truths are to be experienced rather than be believed as simple statements. Therefore we are directed to exercise them by:

1. Understanding anguish 2. Letting go of its origins 3. Realizing its cessation 4. Cultivating the path

[edit] Removing non-canonical commentary from the traditional exposition of the Four Noble Truths

Up until June 26, 2007, this article's identification of the Four Noble Truths appears to have been based on a translation from the Dhammacakka Sutta. Then, on this aforementioned date, someone inserted the following seemingly idiosyncratic four-part commentary:

  • This first Noble Truth reflects on the nature of suffering. The word "Dukkha" is usually translated as "suffering" in English. It comments on types of suffering.
  • The second Noble Truth reflects on the sources of suffering (Dukkha.) Put very simply, it states that suffering results from expectations linked to our desires, and our attachment to those desires themselves.
  • The third Noble Truth reflects on the belief that suffering can be eliminated. It asserts that it can be done, and that it has been done.
  • The fourth Noble Truth lays the groundwork for the cessation of suffering (Dukkha) through the Noble Eightfold Path.

Some time afterwards, these personal observations were then re-formatted to appear to be part of the original canonical words and, in fact, additional personal exposition was added to it (e.g., "A more accurate simplification of this truth is 'Life is full of suffering'").

From a scholastic and general WP viewpoint, the main problem with this, especially in its current format, is that it misrepresents what is taken from the cited source (the Samyutta Nikaya, presumably SN 56.11?). Of course, from a Buddhist viewpoint, it's wordsmithing the Buddha's reputed own words. These issues aside, why reiterate what is already said?

So, shortly, I'm going to delete the above-identified commentary. If someone would like to add it back in a manner consistent with basic scholasticism (e.g., perhaps in a separate subsection), I'd welcome that. Any further discussion here -- whether rejecting my action or thoughts here or otherwise -- I, of course, further welcome as well. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nearly illegible article

I realise the importance of including buddhist dogma and accurate terms into this article, but the current writing style makes it necessary to have about 5 different buddhist-oriented articles open to get even a loose idea what this one is about. Is this an encyclopedia for people to gain an understanding of buddhism from a relatively low-level start, or a buddhist text for those who are already familiar with the Four Noble Truths?

A large and relatively simple change I would suggest is changing a number of the Indian-origin terms to their English equivalents, and pipelinking them to their indian term articles. For example, instead of the line "The Buddha was a Śramaṇa, a wandering ascetic", why not "The Buddha was a wandering ascetic"?

Simply trying to read the article to get a quick idea of what the four noble truths are does not yield much, since all the truths are listed using the term "dukkha" rather than the English term "suffering". I realise there are differences, but should that not be mentioned as a note, rather than writing the main point of the article using predominately non-English vocabulary? Erk|Talk -- I like traffic lights -- 04:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Erk -
Thanks for the sanity check :-)
FWIW, I just got around to checking the cited reference for this article's statement of the Four Noble Truths (Bodhi, 2000, p. 1844) and I see that the referenced text actually uses the word "suffering," not "dukkha." So, given that this is a cited blockquote, I'll change it to correctly reflect what is in the source text.
Tangentially, this article has one of the more convoluted "References" section I've seen. For instance, to figure out what the current footnote 6 is, I have to go to the top of the Reference section to see that "SN" is "Samyutta Nikaya" (no surprise there) and then figure out that this refers to yet another footnote (in this case, 13) which identifies the SN edition used is the Bodhi (2000) text. Given that the well-intentioned and undoubtably smart editor who instituted this version of the "References" has not logged in since January 27, 2007, I hope no one minds if I simply go ahead and modify the current "References" to resemble the frequently used "Notes"+"References" style of many WP articles (especially since many notes will reference the same text but different pages). If so, please free to revert and discuss here, of course.
As for the choice of Indian words in this article's intro, I'll leave that for someone else to address (since I've not had anything to do with that portion of this article). Erk, I can appreciate what you are saying though.
With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 04:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Your right I haven't logged in for a while. Actually I recently disrobed and will no longer be logging in as Bhikkhu Silaveda (not my real ordination name anyway). I appreciate the tidying of the references and all the wise contributions of Mr. Rosenfeld. Sunfirejake 14:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The appreciation is reciprocated — welcome back to the WP! I very much appreciate your sensitivity to and wisdom about the Dhamma and look forward to your future contributions. Best regards, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Simplicity

Can I just add that I would seriously encourage future editors not to try to represent these Four Noble Truths in a casual paraphrased way, this is such a contraversial topic and any effort, however well-intentioned, to interpret these teachings to the newbie, would always incorporate some bias. Perhaps one day there will be another article which comprehensively covers the interpretations; but out of respect for each other lets keep it out of this head article. Sunfirejake 15:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)