Talk:Forward air control

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

USAF JTAC's are the only one's who are trained up to the level of proficeincy the battlefield demands. All others are a frat waiting to happen. And some have already. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.125.112 (talk) 22:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

More work...

We need to summarise the background of FACs/TACPs and list the different types of FAC both historically and contemporarily with separate pages for individual examples.

The FAC works in the joint force environment, where commonality of equipment and procedures is difficult to achieve and providing an accurate depiction here needs co-ordination too.

I am working in the background to make my contribution and hope that those who have their own specialist knowledge can do the same.

The first line in the NATO FAC training manual refers to ‘Safety of own Troops’ but we all know that the way to win the war is to close with the enemy as fast as possible and kill him. In doing so the FAC lives on a fine line between success and failure.

FAC equipment and deployments are varied so I hope we can garner as much data as we can to make this subject as interesting as its history.

This page needs alot of work but I added the USMC heading so that Non US types don't get the wrong impression. It would probably be a good idea to break this out by Country and then service. --Looper5920 21:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot about the FAC's qualifications, but not much about what one is, what he does, what equipment he uses and what he does with it, etc. Ojw 14:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree. What is presented is inaccurate to the degree that it implies that its description is complete. The primary function of the FAC is accomplishment of mission, not force protection. "Safety of troops" is a mission, not a function, and one of many that FACs have served (albeit arguably one of the most important). Also USAF FACs, for instance, did more than direct close air support. In Southeast Asia alone is a complete history virtually ignored here (Ravens, Coveys, Nails, DELTAs). The concept of "Primary" and "Secondary" only relates to a single service in a limited period. And the Misty FACs were "fast FACs"--not FACs per se. For that matter, the Killer Scouts of Desert Storm were FACs by another name. Lots of work needed.

Contents

[edit] Confusing for nonmilitary readers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but reading this article and the TACP article I understand:

  • FACs are now JTACs, except in the USMC.
  • USAF JTACs form units called TACPs.
  • Enlisted TACP members are called ROMADs.
  • Officer TACP members are ALOs.

That's a lot of alphabet soup.

Now I'd like to know:

  • What would I call an enlisted USAF FAC? JTAC/ROMAD/TACP?
  • What would I call an officer? "Officer so-and-so over there is a Joint Tactical Air Control Tactical Air Control Party Air Liason Officer"
  • Are officer FACs always attached to TACPs?
  • How do Combat Controllers fit in the picture? Aren't they also FACs?

Jigen III 06:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FAC (USAF)

Looks like this article could use some help. I would like to help -- my father was a USAF FAC in Viet Nam and I have some information I can share. --Signal32X 17:30, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Indeed- this article claims that only USMC personnel are FACs. Sure wasn't the case when I was USAF SP in late 1970s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.240.122.161 (talk • contribs) 19:05 UTC, March 14, 2006

  • Doctrine has changed sice the 70's. Only the USMC now use the term FAC. All of the other services use the term JTAC. If you want to add a history section then by all means do so--Looper5920 19:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Royal Marines; RAF

I was a British Royal Marine FAC between 1979 and 1994 and worked with the USMC in Europe and the USA on many occasions as well as many other NATO services in the course of my duty.

The official name may have changed but the job remains the same.

The primary function of the FAC is the safety of our own troops during an air attack when an FAC is in the locality of the attack. Modern communications and the advent of the laser and GPS has inegrated the job into the modern battlefield environment.

I feel the term FAC Forward Air Controller should remain as a separate entry covering the history and operations up to the time the designation changed. I am more than happy to add information to fill the gaps with many photos.

My late father was an RAF Navigator in 223 Sqn 100 Gp in WW2 flying in B24s that came from the USAAF instead of the RAF ones and I have much information to be added from his records including charts, logs and photos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martynwg (talk • contribs) 13:49 UTC, May 14, 2006

[edit] Proposed Merge

  • DisagreeThese articles should not be merged. While a FAC is a JTAC a JTAC is not necessarily a FAC. Also, outside of US doctrine a FAC is sometimes airborne which is much different. While similiar, and I realize the articles need work, there are enough differences to keep them separate. --Looper5920 23:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
    But shouldn't the main article be about the topic of forward air control in general? If the details of particular military forces' organizations and procedures get long, then they can be broken off into separate articles. But by default, we don't need a separate stub for every specific title of FAC, JTAC, etc. of every nation. (I just moved Forward Observer to artillery observer, and merged the stubs Forward Observation Officer and Joint Fires Observer into it—looks good) —Michael Z. 2006-07-15 00:08 Z

Disagree also. The articles should not be merged. The term FAC is still widely used in NATO. --80.136.155.129 08:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. JTAC is US specific. We are already overrun with endless meta-discussions trying to neuter every single phrase in human existence when people likely to research a topic will likely search for a specific term such as JTAC.--Buckboard 06:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Disagree as well. Especially because a FAC needs a higher level of CAS profeciency to qualify as a FAC. The US trains its JTACs to lower standards than those accepted in NATO as minimum FAC standards. It is a bit more than a "potato vs. potato" discussion :)

[edit] Article concerns

The folowing was transfered from the aticle space by NeoFreak:

The Info on the Marines is flawed FACs are not the only Marines Trained in CAS. FACs are pilots trained in CAS, but Ground Combat Officers and Staff NCOs, MOS 0369, 0321, 0871, that complete the Marine Corps' TACP course are also JTACs MOS 9986. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.115.60.50 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Criticisms

I would consider adding examples of friendly fire incident where either FAC made mistakes or were ignored. e.g. the case that has just being ruled 'a criminal act'. 217.7.209.108 13:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure you are refering to this incident. I'm not aware of any particular instance in which it was the failing of the "doctrine" or concept of forward air control itself that has lead to any deaths, esp criminally neglegent ones. This is for the coverage of the doctrine itself so unless these were the result of this doctrine or capability being the direct culprit (as it was not in the cited story) then I don't really think it belongs in this article. NeoFreak 15:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)