Talk:Forlorn hope

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Are you guys sure 'verloren hoop' means lost troop? As far as I know it means 'lost hope'. I don't speak Dutch, but I do understand it pretty well. Bertus 11:59, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

While not knowing any better, I doubt the last part on Shtraf battalions as Strafe and Strafbattalion are German words. Thus, it seems unlikely that Germans copied the "Russian Shtraf" tactics. Moreover, I agree on the last discussion entry that states that "hoop" means "hope" not "troop".

I found this term in C.H. Firth's "Cromwell's Army". Looking over the information readily available, this discussion offers the best contextual, if not etymologically interesting interpretation: http://49.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FO/FORLORN_HOPE.htm

As to penal battalions in WWII, the Wehrmacht was much more desperate for manpower than the Soviets, and I recall books by Sven Hassel about the German use of these. I doubt the Germans had to borrow the idea.

To shed a bit of light on the hoop/hope discussion: The link posted above says "Dutch: verloren hoop, from Ger. verlorene Haufe= lost troop ; Haufe, heap, being equivalent in the 17th century to body of troops". The quote above is a bit wrong as the grammatically correct German words wouldn't be "verlorene Haufe", but "verlorener Haufen". "Ein Haufen Leute" means literally "a bunch (of) people" and is still used in colloquial German today. I don't speak Dutch, but German and Dutch are so close related that people who speak one language can read most of the other, so I am quite positive that my interpretation of the Dutch meaning of "hoop" is correct. The similarities to the english homonym "hope" are just coincidentally, but it adds a sense of desperation to an already grim term and is bound to be misunderstood by a native english speaker who overhears the words.


Actually hoop can mean both "hope" and "a lot", "pile" or "bunch". I changed the translation to hope, but this may not be correct. Unfortunately there is not yet a link to a source.--MarSch 14:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
googling I could only find cooroboration for the translation of hoop as troop, band. --MarSch 14:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I speak dutch, and I agree with was written here. "Hoop" can mean both "hope" and "troop" (or "heap") . Personally I thought the main meaning here was "hope" but of course I had already read the English title of the article. It could just as well mean lost troop.
One for British readers: I too can only find hoop as meaning troop but, searching Dutch Wikipedia for enlightenment, a page high in the list of results was Tim Henman, the folorn hope of British tennis. Perhaps the Dutch have taken the phrase back, with its new sense, and the meaning hope does now exist in the language. --Old Moonraker (talk) 07:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
No matter what you guys find on Google; as a Dutch speaker, I can assure you that "hoop" is the only Dutch word for the English "hope", and I'm sure any translating dictionary will confirm this. The verbs "hoffen" in German, "hopen" in Dutch and "hoping" in English have common West Germanic roots. The noun "hoop" in Dutch has two meanings. In its primary use, it's a derivative from the abovementioned verb, and means "hope". In its secondary use, it shares its meaning and origins with the English noun "heap". In the present context, both meanings are appropriate, and it's likely that this ambiguity was deliberate when the term was coined. I am willing to accept that a majority of English sources claim that "verloren hoop" should be literally translated to "lost heap", but the claim on the main page (the Dutch word "hoop" is not cognate with English hope.) is plain incorrect. I reworded the sentence. 71.166.119.170 (talk) 04:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Outdent] Thanks,71.166.119.170, for taking the trouble to explain your edits: it's an important principle on Wikipedia. Equally important, however, is the one of no original research. You have removed a sourced piece of information (indeed, from the authoritative Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster) in favor of "as a Dutch speaker I can assure you". This input is helpful, as few of the other editors seem to speak the language, but it cannot justify deleting cited material with which you disagree. I'm removing it for now. By all means bring it back, with a published, verifiable source, but let the existing material stand: e.g. other sources, however, assert... or similar. Again, thanks for trying to help out here. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

As a native speaker, I'd never thought that Hoop in Verloren Hoop (literally Lost Hope) could mean heap or band. It's too bad the etymology is missing entirely, or at least I couldn't find it in the linked dictionary articles. To say that the English hope is not cognate with the Dutch hoop is a leap too far though. As noted above, German Hoffen, Dutch hoop, English hope. If this is indeed not cognate, please provide sources. For now, I'll just put in a call for citation. Hoop can be both heap/band/troop or hope. Remmelt (talk) 08:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I have just added another citation in place of User:Remmelt's {{cn}} request, then read the discussion here. This is the wrong order, and I apologise. The issue is still in doubt, and the fact that three very notable sources state otherwise shouldn't mean that there isn't room for further discussion. I'm even considering a self revert! My big problem, however, is the need to prove the negative: to provide an etymological source to say that something obviously not considered in the world of etymology is untrue. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

"Missing etymology" Here, verbatim, is the etymology from the OED:

"ad. Du. verloren hoop (in Kilian 1598), lit. ‘lost troop’ (hoop = HEAP, Ger. haufen). Cf. Fr. enfants perdus. (Among sailors mispronounced flowing hope.) HEAP: [OE. héap = OFris. hâp, OS. hôp (MDu., MLG., LG. hôp, Du. hoop), OHG. houf (MHG. houf), ON. hópr (Sw. hop, Da. hob) adopted from LG.; wanting in Gothic; :—OTeut. *haupo-z. In ablaut relation to OHG. hûfo, MHG. hûfe, Ger. haufe:—*hûpon-; from stem *hup-, pre-Teut. *kub-: cf. L. cumbĕre, cubāre. "

I hope there's something in it to move the discussion along. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC) --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

At last, and thanks only to relentless prodding from rightly critical contributors, I have found some scholars who specifically state that "hope" as "hoop" is folk etymology. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
My previous edit was not in discussion with the above verloren hoop = lost heap. That indeed is folk etymology. My point is that there is no sense in saying hoop (Dutch) is somehow not cognate with hope (En) or Hoffen (De). Hoop in Dutch has two meanings (at least), one being heap, the other being hope. Either the Dutch hoop is cognate with heap or it's cognate with hope, or both, but there's no folk etymology in that alone. Clearer still: the folk etymology is in the fact that most Dutch people think that verloren hoop means lost hope, where in fact it meant lost heap. No dispute there. My edit was just to make clear that the word hoop is indeed cognate with hope (or heap). Remmelt (talk) 08:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no cognation because the word hope in the English term "forlorn hope" has a different root from the Dutch hoop as heap. That's the point of cognation: they have to have the same ancestor to be cognate. It does, of course, have the same root as Dutch hoop as hope, so I have now written into the article which one is meant. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American Civil War

Apparently the British Army issued a laurel wreath patch to survivors of forlorn hopes.

Editors might consider adding a segment on the American Civil War, especially the action of the "volunteer storming party" in the Union attack on Vicksburg in 1863. It sounds much like a forlorn hope type of action.

B Tillman April 2007


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah... has no one looked into the Saxon shield walls of early England? The forlorn hope were one of the three more effective ways of smashing a shield wall. They were the troops that formed into the Boar's Snout, right at the front who'd surely die, but who would create a gap large enough for the rest of the wedge to push though.

Dictionaries give different derivations but so far I have not seen original documentary evidence. 'Forlorn Hope' is often said to come from the Dutch in the C16 as a military expression from the mistranslation already discussed here but at same time the word forlorn by itself is often said to be older and to come from Old English forloren (lost); related to Saxon farliosan.

Would it not be logical if the word 'foloren' or forlorn existed in English by C16 that it was not a mistranslation at all?

I realise the talk of punishment was in some way relevant where a misdeed might cause you to find yourself in the equivalent of the forlorn hope but why is decimation mentioned?

Uocg 02:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The mention of decimation of Roman ranks for desertion seems incredibly out of place with the article; it seems to be more focusing on the Soviet penal battalions rather than the folorn hope troops. While still on the subject of Rome, I remember there being a corona muralis or some type of crown-award given to the first soldier to make it into the enemy's walls. I can't exactly verify this, but I'm sure there's more on it out there. 70.230.154.248 05:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forlorn hope in anime

Forlorn hope is the second of three demon items stolen from Koenma Sr.'s palace in the Spirit World in the anime/manga YuYu Hakusho along with The Orb of Beast, stolen by the characters Yoko Kurama, Goki, and Hiei. The Forlorn hope has the ability to sacrifice one life in exchange for saving another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.141.158 (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] {{cn}} -- see talk

I am very skeptical of this entire paragraph. I am skeptical that only Gulag prisoners who had been soldiers were empressed into the penal battalions. And I am skeptical that those who were heroic were rewarded:

A more modern equivalent of the Forlorn Hope were the Shtraf penal battalions used by the Soviet Union during the Second World War. The battalions were mainly made up of convicts from the Gulags, often soldiers who had disgraced themselves by, for example, retreating in the face of the enemy or deserting. The penal battalions were seen as a way to redeem their previous crimes. The Shtraf battalions were given suicidal tasks, such as mine clearing or assaults across open terrain towards German positions - their compliance ensured by NKVD units to their rear. In recognition of their high casualty rate, many men from Shtraf battalions became Heroes of the Soviet Union for their bravery and the battalions were eventually copied by the Wehrmacht.

I welcome references to these claims.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 01:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)