Talk:Flaying

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This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.

Contents 1 Bartholomew 2 Holocaust 3 Death by a thousand cuts 4 "On the schismatic side" 5 The cause of death...?

[edit] Bartholomew

I can't say that's not a self-portrait in Michelangelo's "Last Judgement", but I would have presumed it to be St. Bartholomew. Any particular basis for saying he "portrayed himself..."? -- Jmabel

You are correct; see Bartholomew. Neutrality^talk

[edit] Holocaust

"During the Holocaust, the Nazis would flay Jews and use the skin in lampshades." It wouldn't surprise me if such a thing occurred, but it seems to me that something like this should be cited. Also, unless there is a citation to suggest that such a practice was widespread (and note the implication through context that this would mean flaying alive), it probably should not be stated in a way that can be read as suggesting it was. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:08, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

I don't doubt this was done. (In fact, I remember seeing several examples in photographs years ago that apparently used in evidence at post-war trials of death camp personnel.) However, this article is about flaying as a method of execution. The occasional atrocity does not constitute "execution" -- which implies judgment being passed by a government official, right? --Michael K. Smith 01:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• After a bit of searching, I've found one piece of testimony from a respectable source about one such lampshade: A letter written by Georges P. Vanier after his 1945 visit to Buchenwald. Unfortunately, most of what I seem to be able to find about this is Holocaust Denial sites questioning the validity of that one particular artifact. I haven't found anything about more than that single artifact and I haven't found anything from what I would consider a trustworthy source saying that the one artifact is bogus. One of the less repugnant of the Holocaust denial sites says that General Lucius Clay later attested that it was goat skin. They cite "Interview with Lucius Clay, Official Proceeding of the George C. Marshall Research Foundation, cited in "Buchenwald: Legend and Reality," Mark Weber, The Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 7, no. 4. Journal of Historical Review is itself Holocaust denial stuff, and the citation of the interview with Clay is vague, so I would not call this solid refutation. (You can find the same article on The Nizkor Project, but apparently only because someone sent it to a mailing list, and it was archived.) The Holocaust Chronicle], clearly not Holocaust denial material, merely refers to "a lampshade allegedly made from human skin".

Unless someone can come up with something more solid than this by way of citation, I am inclined to just remove this. The specific allegation about Ilse Koch having one lampshade that might or might not have been made of human flesh would probably belong in the article on her, rather than here. And if we are going to have something here or there, it should be much more specific. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:31, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I followed through on that Sept 3, but forgot to mention here on the talk page. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Death by a thousand cuts

Not sure why this item was removed. The Death by a Thousand Cuts article has links to photographs from 1905 of this form of execution being performed. Any further information on that? Were those anti-Chinese propaganda photos or something? Ignus 19:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I was not involved in that, but my best guess is that it was removed for a simple reason : it does not belong in flaying. Flaying is removal of the skin, the thousand cuts actually remove the flesh to bare the bone. So, even if whoever did it did do so out of ideological motives, they would have been right... of course, the material could be republished under its own article. Are you sure the photos were copyright free? It can be assumed that stuff dating from 1905 would be, but there is no guarantee of it. --Svartalf 23:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "On the schismatic side"

"the Polish Jesuit Saint Andrew Bobola was burned, half strangled, partly flayed alive and killed by a sabre stroke by Cossacks on the schismatic side". Huh? - Jmabel | Talk 05:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The cause of death...?

This may sound like a stupid question, but if someone is flayed, what will he actually die from? (Or how long will he survive?) Blood loss? The incapacity of the skin to breathe? Just curious question. --Syzygy 14:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I also came here looking for an answer to that... I'd say it would be a massive infection, if the blood loss doesn't do it first.148.240.253.118 (talk) 23:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)