Talk:Flautist

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[edit] Video

What's up with the giant video on this page? It's ugly, takes up a lot of space, and slows down the page load. Why is it even here? I've never even seen videos like this on Wikipedia. --Colinbartlett 22:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

It's a pity that Martin Linde, Grafenauer and Morris have been removed. In the fullness of time this list will maybe need pruning, but at the present it needs expansion, and some more detail fleshing out for the entries which are in the lists.

I'll leave this for the moment, but may come back to it later.

David Martland 08:44 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

I watch the page, but for some reason this got by me when it happened; the removals were by an anon user with no explanation, so I just restored to the previous version. Stan 12:56 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Flutist or flautist? Danny

I have never heard of a "flutist", yet I see that Google (admittedly, not a reliable guide) gives it more hits than "flautist". I guess it must be American usage. Tannin

We've had this discussion before - most people around the world actually use the word flutist, but in Britain the term flautist is the only one used.

Now that there is a longer section for jazz musicians who play the flute, I hope that there will be more updating and improvement of this page.

David Martland 08:26 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm: It's certainly not just Britain. If a student wrote "flutist" in a paper here in Australia, it would get red ink through it. Always "flautist" here. Tannin

I suspect "flutist" is purely American English, and "flautist" is British/Commonwealth usage. "Flautist" in the US tends of connote pretentiousness, such as by non-players trying to sound knowledgeable. Stan 19:18 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)
Ahh, thankyou, Stan. Over here, if I said "flutist" people would look at me funny and politely not mention my speech impediment. Obviously a US/International English thing then, in which case it should stay as is, under the "first use" rule. Tannin

Being an amateur American musician, I feel obligated to comment...;) I don't think I've ever seen "flutist", just "flautist" and perhaps "flute player" and "player of the flute" (both "flutist" and "flautist" sounding awkward to some). I remember one episode of The Golden Girls where one character referred to someone as a "flautist" and a second party said, "Oh, she plays the flute", and the first responded sarcastically, "No, she plays the flaut. It's like a tuba but with hair on the bottom!" :)

I would suggest "flautist" is the correct usage in every English-speaking region, but "flutist" is a more common incorrect back-formation from flute. Just like more people say "just desserts" (thinking wrongly it is a metaphor) than "just deserts" (where "deserts" is pronounced as "desserts" and refers directly to punishment).

--Furrykef 23:14, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Flutist dates to 1595-1605. Flautist entered English from Italian around 1855-1860. Pretension and a British accent complement one another, so why not use some ritzy Continental word instead of the proper English one. Even more amusing, Nathaniel Hawthorne is cited by the OED as using "flautist" first, meaning the British have opted for an American neologism while Americans stuck with an older term (but not oldest, at least in print) 24.47.23.189 04:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I take you haven't read Nancy Toff's book then - pages xiv-xv discuss this very point, for instance observing that "flutist" is the original and "flautist" came into use centuries later; she concludes by favoring "flutist". Google search also shows 108,000 hits for "flutist" vs 44,000 for "flautist" (and a suggestion to try "flutist"!). So exactly how did you manage to miss those 108,000 web pages? :-) Stan 00:35, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Whatever the original spelling/pronunciation was, though, "flautist" appears to have become the correct form for some reason. But, of course, whether it is or isn't, it's certainly incorrect to suggest "flutist" is an Americanism. Just because an American misspells something doesn't mean it's the way we all spell it. After all, most of us don't know how to spell. ;)
--Furrykef 05:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

I noticed that some of the flutists have descriptions by them, but many don't. I'm not wild about explaining who Boehm, Frederick the Great, and Quantz were, but not giving Rampal a blurb. Would anyone object if I just took out all of the summaries? Or should we add summaries to the rest of them? I don't really care; I just think it's silly how it is now. Starwiz 01:28, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Should be "flautist" if we're going to be consistent

...since the article itself says "flautist" is the standard English term. Either move, or remove that note. ··gracefool |☺ 10:51, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Indeed.
James F. (talk) 20:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've moved it, because the category was also changed to "flautist". ··gracefool |☺ 13:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] saying Flutist or Flautist

i'm a flutist or flautist(flutist sounds better) it's amazing how many ways people will pronounce Flutist. i've been called a fluterist, flutist(pronounce the u as in flut), and many people call me "Flute Dude". it's funny to see people try figure out what a flute player is called:) BoOkWoRm 20:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

...but everyone knows what a "flute player" is! --Blouis79 00:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IPA?

I know that it might seem a bit unnecessary, but as there's no agreed spelling for the topic, maybe we should include IPA pronunciations for "flautist" vs. "flutist"... just to make it clear. I figure we'd live without one, but it'd be nice. T. S. Rice 21:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed.
The article contradicts my understanding of the origins of the term, a Victorian affectation that derived from an admiration for things German; the pronunciation is supposed to be "flotist" and not "flaow-tist" as so many Americans render it.
Frankly, I think this entire article ought to be reduced to this text:
Alternative term for "flutist"
with a link to the main article for flutist. We don't, after all, refer to bassoon players as "faggoti" do we? Truddick 03:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And from an my Australian flautist's perspective flutist sounds odd. The title is far less important than the content which seems to explain the different origins adequately. I do note, however, that flutist gets far more webhits but if the term is used uniformly in the US then this is only to be expected. The consise Oxford English Dictionary lists flautist as the name with flutist as an American alternative and my Websters lists both flutist and flautist with no expressed preference - Peripitus (Talk) 12:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmph. So who gets to determine what "English" is anymore--is it the nation with the most people who claim to speak the tongue? :-) Or should we just call it "English", "Aussie", "Murcan", and "Yorkie" and acknowledge linguistic drift (perhaps too late now that the internet is eliminating regional isolation).
But look above. OED, probably the definitive source, holds that "flutist" is the older term and "flautist"--as confirmed by etymologists--is a Victorian era affectation.
C'mon mate, I expect you Aussies to brook little nonsense like non-standardization of the language! The way to indicate someone who practices something is to add "ist" and not to change the spelling of the original: therapist, linguist, theorist, impressionist--and clarinetist, pianist, percussionist, oboist, violinist, 'cellist, bassist, guitarist, organist, harpist, trombonist, ad nauseum.
If you really, really want to cleave to a Victorian affectation, why not pick up one that actually advances the development of the language by simplifying its verb forms? Like "ain't".

[edit] Flutists Cited In This Article

It seems to me that there is a need for some serious re-thinking about who is on this list. The list should include people who are or have been famous and influtential flutists, not famous people who just happen to play the flute. The list should include those who have had some influence on flute construction, flute techniques, or flute uses. Georges Barrere needs to be on the list ASAP. Gary Schocker, the world’s most published living composer of music for the flute, belongs on the list. Peter Gabriel simply doens't belong there. An agency like the "National Flute Association" [1] should weigh in on this. Weyandt 20:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] And it appears that neither 'flautist' nor 'flutist' are the eldest

Please see my added para to the controversy section, respectfully submitted. Cryptonymius 18:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michelle Flaherty

I deleted Michelle Flaherty's name from the list. I don't think she warrants being mentioned here. If anyone thinks she should be on the list, please give your reasons here before readding her name.--Tabun1015 15:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Somebody added a *fictional* flute-playing high-schooler? Geez, sometimes it seems like we've got a bunch of freaks editing WP. In any case, the removal is totally correct. Stan 18:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added "flutist" to first sentence

I added flutist to the existing terms flautist and flute-player in the first sentence. I hope this isn't objectionable, as I didn't remove the terms that were already there but only acknowledged, in addition, the widespread and completely accepted use of flutist in the US. Stan really hit the nail on the head when he remarked: "Flautist in the US tends [to] connote pretentiousness, such as by non-players trying to sound knowledgeable." I've been a professional musician in the US for decades, and I've heard flautist plenty of times, but hardly ever from the mouth of a professional colleague (especially one who plays flute). I respectfully disagree with Furrykef's suggestion that "flautist is the correct usage in every English-speaking region." Emoll 22:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Reading a combination of controversy, history and modern usage, "Flute player" seems to me the preferred and historically correct and neutral term.--Blouis79 23:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

There were many options discussed here (including treating the article more like a list) but there doesn't seem to be a consensus in favour of any of them. I should note for the benefit of any future discussion that the argument about regional varieties of English is a very, very old debate here, and generally speaking unless a term has a strong connection with any particular variety, it tends to be "first come, first served" in terms of spelling. --bainer (talk) 13:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


NPOV - Flautist is dominant in Britain; Flutist is dominant in USA; "Flute player" is used by James Galway now and also historically by Rockstro one hundred years ago in Britain. "Flute player" seems appropriate from NPOV perspective. Google hits: flute player 452000, flautist 490000, flutist 1090000. There will never be agreement of users of flautist and flutist on opposite sides of the atlantic to use one of those terms. alternative names for the page could be "Flute player (flautist, flutist)" alphabetic options or "flutist/flautist/flute player" in order of popularity. Current name is unacceptable to global majority based on google hits. --Blouis79 23:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Support move, but prefer flutist; the phrase I heard from Galway was "I don't play the flaut, I play the flute", and if Flutist is more popular we should use it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose I don't know if I would call it POV, it's just an alternate spelling. Since both American and British spelling are excepted on the English Wikipedia (actually any spelling variants), we should try not to make an issue of things like this. (The great color vs. colour controversy comes to mind.) Generally, we agree to use the original author's variant. In this case, it happens to be (presumably) British. If this was merely about usage within an article, I would strongly oppose, yet since this is about the article name and there's with a third alternative being suggested that's not tied to a specific dialect, I'll remain semi-neutral. What stops me from supporting, is the over-neutrali[sz]ing of words. Words have meaning, and we shouldn't use obscure or unestablished terms just to avoid possible spelling conflicts. If there's published evidence this term may be offensive to flute players, then definitely change it, but if you're implying it's offensive to speakers of non-British English, then I think we already settled that debate. (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English) And remember you can't please all people all the time, sometimes you just got to settle.
On a side note, the majority of English Wikipedia readers and editors are from the U.S., so "flutist" would be ideal if consistency be the issue. Rocket000 10:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge a brief mention into Flute. Does this really warrant its own article? Don't all the other "X player" or "Xist" articles redirect to "X" anyway? SFT | Talk 15:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Violinist mentions a physical condition that happens to violin players, while organist mentions typical employment options, so unique content is theoretically possible. But given that this article was created in 2002, I think it's more likely the case that it's simply a holdover from early days that hasn't been restructured in a more "modern" way. Stan 17:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I should point out that Google results are ambiguous here - could very well be that most of the "flute player" hits are just repetitions of the single statement from Galway, what with news feeds on pages and like. However, I note that the article consists of a) the naming controversy, and b) a list of people notable for their flute playing, so perhaps we should call it what it really is: list of flute players. Redirect flutist/flautist to flute, and move the naming material there. Flutists are not fundamentally different kinds of human beings that need a distinct article to describe their characteristics, so I don't see how this article is ever going to be much more than the list. Stan 13:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

From what I can see, Google hits on "flute player" have a wide variety of sources at the top of the search, and as mentioned earlier, the term has been in use for more than 100 years. However, I agree it makes sense to call the article "List of flute players" and possibly shift the naming controversy, though how do people feel about keeping the naming controversy in the "LIst of..." article???--Blouis79 05:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose. renaming it to flutist as per rocket000 would also be NPOV. "list of flute players" seems most logical. Bungalowbill 15:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. More NPOV.--Jerry 01:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English says:

Opportunities for commonality Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English. In choosing words or expressions, especially for article titles, there may be value in making choices that avoid varying spellings, where possible. In extreme cases of conflicting names, a common substitute (such as fixed-wing aircraft) is favored over national varieties (fixed-wing aeroplanes [British English], and fixed-wing airplanes [American English]).

(Thanks Rocket000 for pointing it out.)--Blouis79 05:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak support To me, "flute player" sounds like someone playing a flute with minimal training (cf. piano player and pianist). What was the original location of this page? Flautist and Flute player appear to have been created in November 2002, Flutist wasn't created until June 2005 (although that edit comment "Flutist moved to Flautist" has me confused because the page doesn't actually appear to have been moved). Hmmmm... "The Oxford English Dictionary states that the word flutist (1603) is a much older established word than flautist (1860)."[2] Ewlyahoocom 08:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

[edit] Provencal

I believe the word "flautist" derives ultimately from Provencal, not Italian. This should be mentioned in the article. Badagnani 22:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should this be an article?

First, let me state, I'm not proposing deletion. My goal is just to generate some discussion.

The article currently [3] has three sections.

  1. A one-sentence definition.
  2. A section about the naming controversy.
  3. A list of notable flautists.

This is a really old article (going back to 15 Nov. 2002). From then till now, there has not been enough content added to warrant an article. The list should really be moved to List of flautists. The definition is only important because of the rest of the article. Otherwise a disambig. page with a Wiktionary link will do. So what you're left with is "Naming controversy". That's it. The whole article. And that's fine, but then the article should be renamed to Naming controversy involving "flautists" or something like that. Rocket000 (talk) 07:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jennifer Fetzer

I don't know who she is, but she is certainly not "of the rock group Jethro Tull". A google search on "jennifer fetzer" + flute came up with five results, four of which simply quoted this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.192.231 (talk) 00:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need serious re-editing for NPOV

"Also one of the finest people you'll ever meet! And my personal favorite." -- enough said. Pasi (talk) 11:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Just edit these out when you see them please - this page seems to be a magnet for people adding friends and other non-notables. Stan (talk) 17:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redlinks

This is silly, the following were all removed from the article page:

Notable (???) flautists

  • Bob Armer (central Oregon sass flautist)
  • Avi Piamenta Rock, Jazz, fusion (of The Piamenta Band)
  • Samuel Baron
  • Georges Barrère[1]
  • Jean-Louis Beaumadier - Removed from list by Nigosh (talk) 13:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Bonita Boyd
  • Leone Buyse
  • Christine Nield-Capote
  • Ian Clarke
  • Rebecca Marie Conneely
  • Patricia Creighton
  • Roberto Fabbriciani
  • Andrea Griminelli
  • Kelly Nicole Jahn
  • Naveen Kumar - From South India (Chennai). Recently released an instrumental album Fluid
  • Joseph Mariano
  • Cheryl Pederson - flutist and vocalist for the blues band The Hard Miles Band
  • Amanda Pratt
  • Elizabeth Mann
  • Mao Xia
  • Charles Nicholson - flutist
  • Aurèle Nicolet
  • Prapancham Sita Ram
  • Alexa Still
  • Sheridan Stokes
  • David Weiss
  • Henrik Wiese
  • Keith Underwood
  • John Wummer
  • Yang Wong

Jazz flute players

Notable innovators/Contemporary composers

  • Michael Colquhoun
  • Rhonda Larson

Notable progressive rock players include:

  • Avi Piamenta - The Piamenta Band

- Nigosh (talk) 19:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)