Talk:First they came...
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Is there a date for the poem? Seems silly not to date it. MrZaius 03:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no date for any written version by Niemoeller: hence the problems. Norvo 23:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm relatively new and so am not up on all the minutiae of Wikipedia policies, but shouldn't the text of the poem(s) be placed on Wikisource or some other website? -- Dan Carlson 22:26, Feb 10, 2004 (UTC)
The version of this poem in the Wikipedia entry on Martin Niemöller has a slightly different text; shouldn't the two be the same? I do not know what the original was, so I cannot make the correction.
It appears that both could actually be correct as niether are the "original". They are both translations from german into english and as such appear similar enough to allow for slight differences in translation. The original was written in german not english so some slight variation should be expected after translation.
- Reading through [[1]] and [[2]], the impression I get is that Niemoller expressed the basic thrust of the poem in prose, but that the poem itself is an immediate post-mortal distillation of his thoughts by parties unknown. As mentioned in the article, the groups mention in the text vary ("Trade Unionists" are often substituted for "Catholics"). In other words, I believe that Niemoller thought the thought but did not write the write. -Ashley Pomeroy 14:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
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- The interpretation of Catholics would not make sense. He was writing about Nazi Gernamy, and as most people know, Nazi Germany was a Catholic state, so coming after the Catholics would not make sense if the whole point was to leave only Arian Catholics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinkydarkbird (talk • contribs) 02:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I have my suspicions about the German "original": for one thing there doesn't actually seem to be an attested German original: I think the so-called original is likely translated back from English. Reading some of the original texts at Marcuse's site, I note that he frequently used the verbs "beseitigen" (put aside, get rid of), and "schweigen" (to keep silent) to describe the Nazi actions and his (non)reaction, respectively. They don't appear in the "original". And as to the order of the victimisation, he would of course have known the actual order: Commies, the "Unheilbaren", Socialists and trade unionists, the Jews, and finally the uppity Christian clergy (I think that's the historical order). MMacD, 14th Jan 06
It's useful to see this article published by the Martin-Niemoeller-Stiftung. [3]
Norvo 23:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I added a documented reference to the "mentally ill" version, so I think that the big question mark that this is an unverified entry can be removed. -- Harold Marcuse, 6/30/07
Contents |
[edit] The Image
Is it just me, or is that "image" of the poem on a stone just crappy photoshop text against a stone background? 74.104.77.121 15:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Off-topic
I moved this stuff over from the article, as it seems off topic to me. What does this contribute in regard to the poem "First they came?" Str1977 (smile back) 09:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- It contributes nothing at all. It's just irrelevant axe-grinding.
Norvo 04:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poem as a Confession of an Antisemite
September 1939, ten months after Kristallnacht, Lutheran pastor Niemöller volunteered, "to fight for Adolph Hitler’s Germany".
This offer to serve the Nazis was made by a man whose famous words, uttered after the defeat of Germany, so appeal to us. This offer to serve the Nazis "in any capacity" was made by a man who, when "they came for the Jews", failed to speak out because he was a common variety of anti-Semite. This offer to serve Hitler "in any capacity" was made by the man who, "after they came for me", spoke out for himself by offering to bear arms for them, for those who, had they won the war, would have searched the earth to kill every Jewish man, woman, and child. What darker example of the power of nationalism is there than Niemoller, a Christian minister, ready in the name of Germany to drink from the cup of genocide? http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/niem/NiemollersAntisemitism.htm http://scarsdale.blogdrive.com/archive/cm-01_cy-2004_m-01_d-10_y-2004_o-0.html
[edit] Pastor Martin Niemöller Record Whitewashed
One of the most striking exemplars of the pervasive anti-Semitism of the non-Nazi right wing is a man whose record is nowadays often whitewashed. Pastor Martin Niemöller, later himself to be persecuted by the Nazis, never made a secret of his strong, racial anti-Semitism. In his Sätze zur Arierfrage in der Kirche ('Theses on the Aryan Question in the Church') of November 1933, he opposed the introduction of the "Aryan paragraph" in the Protestant church on doctrinal grounds, but takes care, nevertheless, to opine that Jews had done great harm to Germany; he also indicates that the baptized Christians of Jewish origins are personally distasteful to him (text in Günther van Norden, Der Deutsche Protestantismus im Jahr der nationalsozialistischen Machtergreifung, Gütersloh, 1979, pp. 361-363). As late as 1935, Niemöller goes out of his way to preach hatred against the Jews: "What is the reason for [their] obvious punishment, which has lasted for thousands of years? Dear brethren, the reason is easily given: the Jews brought the Christ of God to the cross!" The text of this sermon, in English, is found in Martin Niemöller, First Commandment, London, 1937, pp. 243-250. .... On the attitude of the Bekennende Kirche to the Jews see also the revealing essay by Uriel Tal, 'On Modern Lutheranism and the Jews,' in LBI Yearbook XXX (1985), pp. 203-213. http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/niem/NiemAntisemCohnHMCorresp034.htm
The author, Professor Werner Cohn, states:
“I lived as a Jew under the Nazis in the very years that he [ Martin Niemöller ]told his Dahlem congregation that we Jews were race aliens, and also that we deserved what we got, having murdered Christ. I lived not too far from his church, and his name was mentioned in my home.” http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/niem/NiemAntisemCohnHMCorresp034.htm#cohnbiog
It's widely known and stated in the article that Niemoller was an antisemite. Now, if you can attribute such virulent ideas to him later in life, THEN you have a revelation. Here, however, we have the story of a man who held virulent ideas and publicly repented for them. If you feel like crcifying him for this, fine, but doing so on the Wiki is not neutral unless you can find proof that he held these views throughout his life and his anti-nuke activism .etc was a front. --128.119.17.205 (talk) 22:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Google Translation
why on earth is there a google translation in the article? it seems completely pointless, if not counter productive, to insert a machine translation. since when is google translate an authoritative translation? sorry, i'm pulling it. it adds nothing of value to the article. nothing. Anastrophe 17:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
- You have my support. Earlier I removed a Google translation, only to see it later added back. jareha (comments) 17:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Other
When Bushdom came after the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist.
When they stole a portion of the fruit of my labor, I remained silent; I was threatened with my life at gunpoint, my property secured under the Constitution seized.
When they picked my pocket, I remained silent; I did not argue with push-pull craponomics.
When they went after the terrorists' families, I remained silent; I thought they deserved the same fate as my family.
When they came for the sick, the so-called incurables, I remained silent; I was not mentally ill.
When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.
We didn't raise our voice, we didn't make a fuss. It's funny there was no one left to notice when they came for us.
[edit] Poem in pop culteure
wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Great_Radio_Messages#Martin_Niemoller_Lives.21
[edit] Edit of references to Mentally ill
Hmarcuse deleted the references to substantiate the mental illness inclusion. I think they are nessary as evidence. I am (hopefully~I never reverted before) reverting it.--Mark v1.0 04:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Valid message
because there's a lot of precedent for despots desiring to kill or arrest every last person in their lands --NEMT 17:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Removing questionmark
[[4]] Who has the power and authority to remove the questionmark it?--Mark v1.0 15:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
They came first for the Taino, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Taino. Then they came for the Lenape, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Lenape. Then they came for the Mohicans, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Mohican. Then they came for the Shawnee, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant Government Chief tribe. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up. Support credibility! Support justice! Support Tribal Soveignty!
Revision by D.DuShane —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.8.45.178 (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Poem?
How does this constitute a poem?
It's a passage from a speech that Rev. Niemoeller gave on a number of occasions after the war. Take out the artificially imposed formatting and it goes back to what it was: part of a speech. Powerful, yes. Evocative, yes. But you could take an excerpt from MLK's "I have a dream" speech and format it similarly ...
I have a dream
that one day this nation
will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
I have a dream
that one day on the red hills of Georgia
the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners
will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream
that one day even the state of Mississippi,
a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression,
will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream
that my four little children will one day live in a nation
where they will not be judged by the color of their skin
but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today.
...but it wouldn't be a poem. Neither is the "First they came..." quote. It's the same things, an excerpt from a speech, and formatting it like a poem doesn't turn it into one.
The modern view is that a poem is anything a poet claims it to be, and a poet is anyone who claims to be one, but Rev. Niemoeller never (to the best of my knowledge, at least) claimed that excerpt from his speech to be a poem, nor did he ever claim to be a poet. One reason, by the way, that there is no "definitive" version is that he worded it slightly differently in various speeches. Compare the version from the Congressional Record, not usually considered a repository of poetry:
When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then, Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church—there was nobody left to be concerned.
All ranting aside, should this have an article defining it as a poem, when it was never written as one, never meant to be one, displays none of the conventional attributes of poetry, and it has only gained the appearance of poetry through artificially-imposed formatting?
It's one of the quotes which has defined the way I want to live my life. It's one of the most powerful statements against oppression and injustice ever to be written. It is many things. But in this humble contributor's opinion, one of the things that it is not is a poem.
So, should there even be a page discussing it as a poem? Wouldn't it be better to have a page that discusses what it is, and why it is important, instead of portraying it as what it isn't?
Worldwalker (talk) 07:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
