Talk:First Battle of Bull Run

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Contents

[edit] Dates?

Yes, it's the 21st. The 16-22 range includes the pre- and post-maneuvering, which a longer article would presumably explain. Stan 07:50 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 10:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming Convention

  • First Battle of Bull Run → First Battle of Manassas = Rationale: Southern naming conventions for battles. Because Manassas is in Southern territory and a Southern victory, it should be formally refered to by its local name. - Please share your opinion at Talk:First Battle of Bull Run Maior 22:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose. Although we usually adopt the NPS battlefield names, there are exceptions. In this case, we have selected the name that has the widest popular usage, which is generally more important to Wikipedia readers than strict adherence to a rule of thumb. Hal Jespersen 01:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose. As long as the article explains that battles were named in different ways by the Union and by the Confederacy, I see no need to change it. Besides, I assume there are some people who know the battle as Bull Run, so if you were to change the title of the article to Manassas, those people might see a problem with the name of the article then, like you did now. Also, I agree with Hlj above. J. Finkelstein 01:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose, "Bull Run" is much more common.
    • Oppose, that would be preferential to the losing nation. 132.205.45.148 17:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose Most common name. Septentrionalis 05:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose -- keep the common name. Thumbelina 23:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose - most common--Aldux 16:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

My understanding was that the naming convention for battles was the opposite of the convention described in this article, i.e. that the Confederacy named battles after natural features and bodies of water, while the Union named battles after towns and cities. However, finding a good answer to this question on the Web is harder than it should be.

  • No. In general, where there are alternate names for battles, the Confederacy tended to use the name of the nearest town, and the Federals tended to use natural features such as streams. Thus, the two battles near Manassas Junction were known by the name of Manassas in the South and by Bull Run in the North. Another prominent example is the Battle of Antietam, which is so named in the North, but in the South was known by the name Sharpsburg. The National Park Service, which administers numerous Civil War battle sites, typically follows the convention of naming the battlefield parks it operates by the name that the victorious side in a battle used. (E.g., Manassas National Battlefield Park is the site of two Southern victories, the First and Second Battles of Manassas.)RBrown 00:17, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

If the convention is to name a battle the way the victor made it why has the artical called this first battle of Bull Run

Bold textI don't know how to add a separate comment, but the formatting on this page needs to be changed. Instead of the handy war chart, only the encoding shows up.

[edit] Speculation

Although the Confederates would probably have won the war had they marched on Washington during the rout, they were too exhausted to follow through with a pursuit of the enemy.

Pure speculation with no historical basis, not encyclopedic material. Removed it.

Actually ... The Confederates did, Longstreet moves across Blackburn's Ford on July 21, but find the Union had massed at Centreville so broke off the engagement [per text of interpretive marker at Blackburn's Ford]. I do not care about the opinions of others on the civil war--i am a 14 year old girl attending jcms a middle school i am currently studing this war, i find this war to have been unnessassary and unreasonable...there seem to have been to many lives lost for a rediculas reason i do beleive the cause was good but it should have been handled in a different way

[edit] Question, please

Wasn't the flight of Union soldiers and spectators referred to as "The Great Skedaddle"? I have searched the Internet for corroboration or at least info elsewhere with no success. Or am I confusing it with something else. (If so, please feel free to [SNIP] this comment.) 85.97.177.67 14:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm doing this wrong, I'm new to this. I happen to know for a fact that "The Great Skedaddle" occured during World War II. That was when the entire Russian government fled Moscow to go beyond the boyars (swamps east of Moscow). It's even rumored that Stalin himself fled, but had all those with knowledge of the incident shot.

There were a number of events in the Civil War nicknamed the Great Skedaddle, most notably Banks' rout in the Shenandoah Valley in May 1862. Several northern newspapers first used this term for McDowell's army's hasty retirement from Bull Run. The term also appears in some regimental histories (for example, 7th Virginia). Scott Mingus 17:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I grew up in northern Virginia along Rte. 29 (Lee Highway--it runs right through Manassas and was the route the spectators took when they fled) and have heard the Great Skedaddle mentioned many times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.110.85 (talk) 04:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Does anyone know where Cub Run stream was photographed?

Also, I live 5 minutes away, and would be happy to take some photos of Bull Run Battlefield for the article.

Zidel333 02:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know and the Library of Congress entry doesn't say more than "Cub Run, Va." Photos of the modern battlefield would be appreciated in the Manassas National Battlefield Park article. Hal Jespersen 16:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good, I will take some hopefully in the next couple of weeks. All depends on weather, and time. :)
Zidel333 02:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
If you look on the 2nd map, Cub run is just a little south from henry house hill, in between the the creek that splits out like a sideways Y, the photo was taken there, I would know because I have been there before, and the photo was very similar to what I saw there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.105.211 (talk) 23:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stonewall Jackson

"The Enemy are beating us back," Bee is reported to have told Jackson, who replied, "Then Sir, we shall give them the bayonet!" Inspired by the cool-headed Jackson, Bee returned to his men and shouted, "There stands Jackson like a stone wall! Rally behind the Virginians! " The immortal "Stonewall" Jackson had been born.

Jackson's name in a college text I studied for my major stated that his name derived from General Benard Bee from S. Carolina shouting to Thomas Jackson for assistance from Jackson and his troops during the battle. Jackson either did not hear or choose not to respond to Bee, which caused the frustrated Bee to shout out "There stands Jackson-- Like a damned stone wall!".

I edited the previous version out and inserted mine, citing a source... If the original author can provide a source for his version of the legend that'd be great, I'd be interested to know if there is a definite origin. Bob the Joker 06:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The history textbook you refer to is espousing a point of view that is definitely in the minority of civil war historians. I have updated this article and the Jackson biography article with citations from more secondary sources that are focused on the Civil War. (I could find quite a number of others, but these should suffice.) You may find it difficult to get a hold of the Freeman reference in its original three volume version, but it should be available in a good library. I do not happen to have a copy of the abridged, one volume version, to know whether this appendix appears. I would tend to doubt it. Hal Jespersen 02:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the article to what it is now cause of vandalism. I really wish I know how to ban the IP of these guys. ParallelPain 04:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background

This doesn't seem like the right way to write a Wikipedia article - " "Attack!" A battle cry arose from the depths of the forest and Brianville troops came sprinting through the woods. Large bursts of cannon fire swept through the battlefield and Brianville troops owned every enemy. That is all you need to know!" Should these sentences get deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.139.137 (talk • contribs) 22:58, 21 May 2007

[edit] Page protection

This article is vandalised several times a day. Has anyone considered page protection for this article? --Daysleeper47 (talk) 14:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I requested page protection since no one responded. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 18:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I concur. This article seems to be vandalized every few days. For the time being, semi-protection (so that only logged in users can edit the content) is probably a good idea for it. --Ladislaus (talk) 19:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to page protection this article hasn't been vandalised in over a week. Thanks! --Daysleeper47 (talk) 18:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from, but that prevents good information from non-users, such as I, from adding to the article. I would like to add a picture of the actual railroad that they fought over (from my vacation listed above) but cannot add it because I do not have an account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.105.211 (talk) 23:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to create an account. Unfortunetly this article was being vandalised several times a day. It had to stop and so this page was protected. I apoligize for the inconvenience as I would really be interested in seeing the picture. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 13:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

Does anyone have a better map, I am trying to find where cub run creek is on the map, and it is not labled, if you can, get a better, more detailed map.

[edit] Misattributed quote in wikipedia article

In the wikipedia article appears the following:

McDowell, however, was concerned about the untried nature of his army. He was reassured by Maj. Gen. Winfield Scott, general-in-chief of the U.S. Army, "You are green, it is true, but they are green also; you are all green alike."

The source for this is listed as:

Davis, William C., and the Editors of Time-Life Books, First Blood: Fort Sumter to Bull Run, Time-Life Books, 1983, ISBN 0-8094-4704-5, pg. 10.

It is my understanding, however, that the quote in question is in reality Lincoln's.

My source:

Williams, T. Harry, Lincoln and his Generals, Gramercy, 1952, ISBN 0-5171-6237-7, pg. 21.

Jflan17 (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)