Talk:First Barbary War

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[edit] unsectioned sections

What does that even mean? This page wasn't created nor mainly edited by people participating in that project. I find it weird and unnerving to have some strange clique arise and declare that such-and-such page is now under their exclusive aegis. What's the point, exactly? --ESP 17:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

An event mentioned in this article is a May 10 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

Later historical battles by the United States in North Africa aren't really related to the Barbary Wars. With an intervening 100+ years of French colonialism, as well as post-colonial independence, North Africa of today is significantly different from the Barbary pirate times.

-- ESP 03:06 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Convinced the American whom/what?

A largely successful undeclared war with French privateers in the late 1790s convinced the American naval power was sufficient to protect the nation's interests -- Polaris999

Changed "convinced" to "showed". Thanks. -- ESP 21:22 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This is about the first Barbary War. Where there others? RickK 00:54, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Barbary Wars, mentioned just above on this page :-), points to a Second Barbary War in 1815. Stan 01:17, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

So, I took out the big ol' Warbox that was added to this page. Here's why:

  • It took up a huge amount of space on a page that's about the First Barbary War. It wasn't about the First Barbary War.
  • The first 40 lines of Wiki markup in the page were now unreadable table stuff. That kind of thing really puts off potential contributors and editors.
  • It dictates one way of looking at the war: "This war is one in a line of wars between the United States and other people." The warbox tries to line it up as if it were a chapter in a book -- but it's not. It a node in a network. There are other ways of linking this article with other related articles. It's got tons of hyperlinks to people, places, and events surrounding the war. I think that's a better way to do things.
  • I think tables for tables' sake are silly.

I added a link at the bottom of the page to Military history of the United States, which probably gets everything necessitated by the warbox without a great big box. --ESP 21:58, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And yet we have a whole bunch of WikiProjects that use many tables. Tables can be useful by offering a set of data available to the reader at a glance. WikiProject tables can be very useful by having that data in a predictable place and format. Granted the warbox removed was skeletal but it should go back as soon as all the fields can be filled in. All tables should be headed by an HTML comment telling the editor to scroll past the table code. --mav 10:07, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Declaration of war

Someone removed the sentence in the lede about this being the first declared war under the Constitution, calling it "misleading". I re-added the sentence. A declaration of war is a vote by Congress to commit troops to a conflict. It's one of the enumerated rights of the legislative branch of the US federal government. "Declaring war" doesn't not mean "they started it" -- it's a legal formality. There are only so many declared wars in US history -- the First Barbary War is the first of them. So, I think it's worth maintaining. --ESP 16:49, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Interesting article about whether or not committing troops constitutes a formal declaration, or whether such a declaration is even required when another state has already formally declared war.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article01/41.html
I'll try some more neutral and illuminating language. Jinian 18:18, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
I removed the sentence. Is there a citation that the Congress declared war? I cannot find any. The Naval History Center indicates that while Tripoi declared war on the U.S., the U.S. did not issue a declaration of war in turn. as described in the article, A Declaration of War is a formal declaration issued by a national government indicating that a state of war exists between that nation, and one or more others. It does not seem to be merely a commitment of troops to a conflict. older≠wiser 18:20, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Jinian, your expansion is just fine by me. Thanks. older≠wiser 19:00, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
I concur. I did move the "declaration of war" section to its proper place in the timeline, though. I had always understood that the First Barbary War was the first declared war of the US, which is why it was in the lede. If it wasn't, then there's no reason to feature this fact. --ESP 20:14, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kleptocracy

In a previous edit, the note about the North African pirate states was removed "for the NPOV policy". NPOV does not require removing uncomplimentary facts about any party. The Barbary states, financed almost exclusively by piracy, were about as close as you can get to a pure kleptocracy.

At the very least, the face that North Africa presented to the European world was purely piratical. At the very least, we need to mention why this war came about. --ESP 20:14, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

'It is obvious to anyone not bedecked in a helmet and a drool cup that this was not a matter of paying a ransom so much as a fair exchange to end a war.'

[edit] More of a perspective?

This article's still written from a very US-centered perspective. Can we get some background on the Barbary states as well as the US background? The name of the Pasha who declared war on the US isn't even in here, for Pete's sake (though I've just added it). --Dvyost 00:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] moors

buried somewhere in Wikipedia I remember that Moors from Spain had become the leaders of the Barbary Pirates in North Africa. Any truth to this? Also more detail on the Barbary Staes would always be helpful. Thanks Hmains 00:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barbary States POV really necessary??

I'm not saying that this article is written from the Barbary States perspective, rather I'm questioning the need to even consider their perspective on things. They were a pirate-run state--kleptocracy, I believe was the term given. Does it really matter how they viewed things? If the modern North African countries that the Barbary States were a part of want to romanticize that part of their history, that's their prerogative, but why should everyone else accept it? I'm sorry, but I just don't accept the notion that all POV's are equal. Clearly, some are better left ignored.

Please sign your edits. Apologism aside, the word kleptocracy is not applicable. Check the article Kleptocracy. It refers to stealing from the citizens of one's own nation. It is also an informal pejorative word. Informal english does not belong on wikipedia. Furthermore, the term barbary states is a reference to barbarism, this is enough. Even furthermore, accuracy makes them city-states. Finally, "piratical" is POV- one could call the French and English "piratical" when they started privateering, or the English when they began empressment. It was not uncommon for bedouin states to ue raids as a form of income, this was a product and relic of a previously nomadic lifestyle where they raided and were raided. They did not consider it "piracy" which was a Western notion. Just as American Indians did not have a notion of war identical to that of the Europeans when they arrived- Please sign your comments. Angrynight 02:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Morocco and US Treaty

what did Morocco have to do with this war? The US and Morocco had a Treaty of Friendship since 1786. Was this treaty ignored and they warred? or did Morocco not control all its coast or what? Thanks Hmains 03:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good work!

I'd just like to say that I found this article very informative, well-written, and to-the-point. A great job to all those who've worked on this article. I think with a few small tweaks (such as adding a few more references for some statements), this article could well be featured article status. —Aiden 06:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A... what?

From the last paragraph in the first section... "In 1786 a Negro and John Murray went to negotiate..." First of all, is there any information as to who this "Negro" was? And secondly, do I need to point out the inappropriateness of the term? Kakashi64 16 Feb 2007

It was vandalism. The original was in this edit: [1] (SEWilco 21:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] NPOV

This really needs to be rewritten from a more neutral point of view - right now, it reads like it's taken straight from a US-American history book. It's certainly a good start for an article, but it still needs work in order to not focus pretty much entirely on and unabashedly favour one side - which it currently does. -- Schneelocke 11:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I point out there were many sides, as the pirates were blackmailing several countries. The article has the name "First Barbary War" because it is focused on the war between the U.S. and the pirates, not all the activites of the pirates. (SEWilco 16:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
I see only minor issues with POV. I am far more concerned about the erroneous characterization of the Tripolitan Navy as "pirates" (a term used nine times in the article) and the sloppiness of the US Naval section and warbox which essentially excludes the US Navy. Auror 16:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background and overview

"Payments in ransom and tribute to the privateering states amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in 1800" Please clarify amount. Is that total ransom for all the years together? Yellowriver101 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yellowriver101 (talk • contribs) 10:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The way I understand the sentence is that in 1800 the money that the US had generated from its country was wasted on tribute?Tourskin 22:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quibble, wikilink, and info re Jefferson quote of Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja

I'm speaking here of "The ambassador answered us ..." at the bottom of the Background and overview section. My quibble is that the cited supporting source does not support the introductory assertion that Jefferson reported this to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress. I'm pretty sure that I've seen that assertion supported elsewhere, but haven't turned anything up with a quick google search. I've wikilinked Michael Oren as the person who made the speech cited as the supporint source -- FWICT this is the right person but, as I'm not 100.00% certain of that, I'll ask someone to remove my wikilink if I haven't got it right or if you're uncomfortable with it. Finally I'll pass along the info that Christopher Hitchens (Spring, 2007), “Jefferson Versus the Muslim Pirates”, CITY Journal 17 (2), <http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_2_urbanities-thomas_jefferson.html> . can also be cited as a supporting source for the quote itself, but not for the assertion that Jefferson reported it to Jay and to Congress. Hitchens, incidentally, mentions in that article that he differs with Oren about whether Jefferson went to war reluctantly or eagerly. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Additionally comments:
Unfortunately, Michael Oren's comments (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/05/11/michaelOren.html) contain no sources/footnotes to the original report from Jefferson. Additionally, the above mentioned article by Christopher Hitchens is also un-sourced.
In searching Jefferson's letters (at least those online), the only letter in 1786 regarding the Barbary Pirates is to John Adams, and is contained at the following two links: 1. http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=46&division=div1; 2. http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl46.htm
I originally asked: "Although there is much "second hand" citing of Jefferson's report, has anyone found the text of the original document quoted by Oren and Hitchens?" Since then, I have found another "second hand" citing of the Ambassador's response to Jefferson, but in a much earlier text; The Atlantic Monthly from October 1872 (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?ammem/coll=moa&root=/moa/atla/atla0030/&tif=00419.TIF&view=50&frames=1). Although I have updated the quote in the article to reflect the earliest source, I am still looking for the original document from Jefferson to Sec. State Jay. Studentofthe193 (talk) 20:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe that what you are looking for may be viewed at the following URL: LoC MTJ Letter of March 28, 1786: Page 2 of 3 pages The entire letter (of which I only scanned small portions of all 3 pages) appears to be a summary of John Adams' and Thomas Jefferson's attempt to negotiate with the Ambassador of Tripoli. I believe this is from collected works of Thomas Jefferson, though I can't be certain, all the more because I am not entirely convinced that Jefferson wrote this particular letter. Its closing is initialed by both "J.A." and "T.J.," then signed by John Jay. I don't believe that it should be represented as a letter from an individual, because it is a report of the work of the two men.
It may interest you to know how I found this page at the Library of Congress. I looked through the books, "John Adams" by McCullough and "Victory in Tripoli" by London, to find what information I could on the meeting. I decided to do a Google search on 3 phrases: "John Adams" "John Jay" "drop in the bucket," which took me to NYT: "Terrorism, Part II" by Steven D. Levitt. One of the comments made by a reader cited the bibliographic info I needed: Thomas Jefferson, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Julian P. Boyd, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1954), Vol. 9, p. 358, Report of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams to John Jay, March 28, 1786. I did a search on the date of the purported letter, along with the relevant names, 1 at a time. That led me to Clipmarks: "Distorting Jefferson’s Thoughts on Islam". A reader of that page refuted the author, by writing to Joshua London (author of "Victory in Tripoli"). He cites 3 places that have published the report, followed by a link to the LoC.
1. "American Peace Commissioners to John Jay," March 28, 1786, "Thomas Jefferson Papers," Series 1. General Correspondence. 1651-1827, Library of Congress.
2. "American Peace Commissioners to John Jay," March 28, 1786, in Julian P. Boyd et al., eds., "The Papers of Thomas Jefferson" (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1955), volume 9, pp: 354 (there are plenty of other references to this meeting in this volume -- which is now searchable online through Amazon.com if you have an account -- go to [WIKIPEDIA BLACKLISTED URL] and click on the "search inside the book" link)
3. "The Adams-Jefferson Letters: the complete correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams" edited by Lester J. Cappon, Volume I, pp: 121, 126, 127.
So, thanks to Joshua London for digging up the original report in the Library of Congress, and thanks to the bloggers who cited the information on the Web, where Google could find it. Pooua (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sweden?

Why is sweden listen on the US side of this war? There is (as far as I can see) no mention what so ever of sweden in the entire article and I have no recollection of sweden ever fighting a naval conflict that far from "home"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.13.115.80 (talk) 12:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Needs Serious POV Changes

"Then-ambassador to France Thomas Jefferson argued that conceding the ransom would only encourage more attacks ("Millions For Defense, Not One Cent For Tribute"). His objections fell on the deaf ears of an inexperienced American government too riven with domestic discord to make a strong show of force overseas."

Way out of neutral POV. Pritchard (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

In what way? The new government was inexperienced and ridden with internal disputes - unless someone with better knowledge corrects me. You know, listing weaknesses isn't a violation of POV.Tourskin (talk) 01:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
This passage is perfectly acceptable. The statements are certainly verifiable and the language is mellow at best. Auror (talk) 01:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it in Wikipedia's interest to criticize right from wrong? The passage stuck out as "should have been avoided very bad that they didn't listen to him". I see how the passage is acceptable, but the passages in this article seem written in a very pro-American view. Rather than stating historical facts, I'm feeling a lean towards anything not pro-American being criticized ("bad things"). While Thomas Jefferson being ignored may be true, and the end results are all facts, to decide what the best or "right" decision was is wrong of Wikipedia to do. Pritchard (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Truth #1: Jefferson did not want to pay tribute; Truth #2: He believed tribute would encourage more attacks; Truth #3: The Congress generally ignored him; Truth #4: The standing Congress was inexperienced; Truth #5: The standing Congress was wracked by sectional and political disagreements; Truth #6: Congress paid the tribute rather than making a show of force.
This is not a case of the article taking a POV on the matter. Rather, the passage you provided merely states a series of incontrovertible truths which do not express any POV. The passage does not project, "Congress approved the tribute because it lacked the moral constitution and bravery to make a show of force when it was clearly necessary." There's no POV problem. Auror (talk) 23:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been reading several Wikipedia articles related to the Barbary nations and a few books and articles. My impression is, the books are fascinating reading and the Wikipedia articles are written by amateurs. It isn't just the POV; the articles look like they were written in brief snippets by a committee that only skimmed a few Web articles for source material. They all look ugly. Important facts are distorted and the writing does not flow.
I have been focusing my attention on the Treaty of Tripoli article, but I think there is material on it that should be in this article. Like all the Barbary articles, it needs work. I am going do my best to clean this up, but it is a massive undertaking, and likely will take several months to a year of constant work to get all the articles where they need to be. Pooua (talk) 23:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I am interested in the observation made in comments above mine that state this article is written from a U.S. perspective. I am forming the impression that the tone of the article is being set by people who have a very different understanding of the period than what I find in books. In particular, the tone suggests that Jefferson promptly pushed Tripoli into war, then engaged in war without Congressional consent. The Treaty of Tripoli article was even more blatant, pinning the blame for breaking the Treaty on Jefferson. None of that is supported by historical documents. Pooua (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Treaties

An article on the First Barbary War should include some mention of the Treaty that was broken when the war was declared. The U.S. had a relationship with the Barbary nations that is not described in the article, but is important to understanding how the war broke out. Pooua (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Millions For Defense, Not One Cent For Tribute"

The article throws out the quote, "Millions For Defense, Not One Cent For Tribute" immediately after stating that Thomas Jefferson argued against paying ransom to the Barbary nations. I see a few things wrong with this. One is that the phrase is famous for a completely unrelated reason, namely, the "XYZ Affair" involving France. Another problem is that it is unsourced. If Jefferson actually used the quote, its context should be given, because the quote is mainly associated with this other event. Pooua (talk) 03:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Sweden

Sweden was for some reason listed as a participant of this war. I removed it since I could fine no reference what so ever of sweden or any swedes in the entire article. Searching through my own reference library for this period I found that while it is true that sweden (as many other minor nations) did pay tribute there were never any open hostilities. This is the only reference I could find of any relations between sweden and the barbary states and as such I removed the swedish flag and the reference of sweden being a participant of the war until 1802. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.13.115.80 (talk) 13:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC) Sweden was indeed at war with tripoli from almost the same time the united states was until 1802. This article leaves alot out about the barbary war and i intend to revise it completely and cite the proper sources when i have the time. But to satisfy your objections, sweden sent a squadron of several ships to blockade Tripoli harbor, they where already blockading tripoli harbor when the americans arrived and participated in several minor insignifigant actions as well as one larger action against the pirates. I intend to make an article about this larger action as and as stated before add much about the war that is unsead here. If you read a scholarly book on the barbary wars you should be able to find more information. The swedes left the war after paying tribute because they felt that they had accoplished little for much effort and were simply wasting time and money, as did the united states congress early on in the war. XavierGreen —Preceding comment was added at 03:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. Sweden did indeed send ships in 1801-1802 which as I understand it where intended to cooperate with Dale. They blocked the harbor of tripoli and secured the release of 137 swedish sailors before returning home. I've found no reference to swedish ships engaged in combat as of yet. Finally managed to get a reasonaly good source of information about this incident, regreatably it's in swedish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.99.20.50 (talk) 14:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Frigate" vs. Brig of War vs. Schooner to describe USS Enterprise (1799)

I'm boldly reverting this edit in which 71.146.232.242 changed the description of the USS Enterprise from "frigate" to "Unites States Brig of War" (sic., sp.). My reasons for this because I see:

  1. The preceding paragraph begins:"In response, Jefferson sent a group of frigates ..."
  2. Wikipedia has no article on Brig of War
  3. Brig (disambiguation) explains: "A brig is also a type of ship which is derived from a brigantine."
  4. Brigantine explains that "In sailing, a brigantine is a vessel with two masts, at least one of which is square rigged."
  5. The illustration in USS Enterprise (1799) shows her to be a two-masted vessel sporting a fore-and-aft mainsail and square-rigged foremast.
  6. this page says: "The Brig of War is a two-masted vessel sporting a fore-and-aft mainsail and square-rigged foremast. This rig gives the Brig of War unique sailing qualities, and a skilled master can maneuver her with great ease and elegance."
  7. I conclude from the above that it is correct to refer to the Enterprise as a Brig of War. However...
  8. USS Enterprise (1799) describes her as a schooner.
  9. This NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER page also describes Enterprise as a schooner.
  10. Schooner says, "A schooner (pronounced /ˈskuːnɚ/) is a type of sailing vessel characterized by the use of fore-and-aft sails on two or more masts.
  11. Frigate says: "A frigate [frĭg'-ĭt] is a warship. The term has been used for warships of many sizes and roles over the past few centuries."
  12. This article should not be overly concerned with the technicalities of nautical nomenclature. Though all three terms are arguably technically correct ("schooner" might be questionable) as descriptions of the Enterprise, "frigate" seems to be the most generally applicable description, is consistent with the description used in the preceeding paragraph for the group of ships, and seems to be an adequate description for purposes of this article.

I don't feel strongly about this, but please do consider the above before reverting my reversion. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 07:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)