Talk:Final Solution

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Contents 1 Strong evidences 2 SOMEONE PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS 3 Hess 4 Community portal? 5 Psychology of the Final Solution 6 Forced migration 7 The Final Solution 8 screaming 9 The "Jewish Question" 10 Clarification needed 11 Requested move 11.1 Voting 11.2 Discussion 12 Edit by 204.107.82.125 13 Merge? 14 Headers 15 So much for "Final" 16 No decisions were made during the Wannsee Conference 17 Execution? 18 Origin of the term 19 spam in "final solution" 20 Mass exterminations begun after Operation Barbarossa 21 "Final Solution" vs. "Final solution" 21.1 Why not Move it: Final Solution → Final solution 22 "final solution of the Jewish question" 22.1 Final solution of the Jewish question 23 Military history my foot! {{WPMILHIST|class=start|German=yes|WWII=yes}} 24 The Final Solution is a novel by Michael Chabon 25 www.shoaheducation.com or shoaheducation 26 Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe 27 Die Endlösung der Judenfrage 28 Unanswered Questions 29 "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question" 29.1 "Final Solution" 30 Requested move 30.1 Voting 30.2 Discussion 31 Rename as "The Final Solution?"

[edit] Strong evidences

Following long discussions with people denying the existence of the final solution, I think this article should be carefully reviewed in order to provide more evidences about the application of the final solutions. I know the proofs seem quite evident and well known to most people (bodies, remains of the camps, german administration formulars, zyklon B commands etc) but I notice a strong temptation toward revisionism in certain countries... Thus, I really think this article still requires more work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.44.77.39 (talk) 10:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SOMEONE PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS

on 29th January 2008 the introduction to this page says the term was coined by 'Adolf Pancake' I'm sure this needs fixing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zz james (talk • contribs) 18:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hess

Rudolf Hess had already flown to Britain and that's why he saved his life at Nuremberg. Am I right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.224.96.198 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 6 April 2004

Rudolf Hess was said to be in a mental institute in Abergavenney in wales —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.38.32 (talk • contribs) 01:09, 11 December 2006

[edit] Community portal?

I'm curious as to why is this listed under "Community portal"? I was redirected here from Final Solution (and Final Solution of the Jewish Question)? Mischief afoot perhaps? --dahamsta 01:10, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

- doesn't seem sane to me either Joolz 23:40, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Psychology of the Final Solution

Are there any Wikipedia pages that deal with the minds behind the Holocaust, from the common German on the street, to the average SS soldier, to the T-4 program "doctors," to Himmler, to Hitler himself?

• See below. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Forced migration

All documents and speeches referred to the "final solution" as a plan of forced migration. There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was such an "extermination plan".

Forced migration to where? -- Petri Krohn 00:30, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Forced migration of every Jew in Europe was merely the logistically impossible pipe dream of Nazi luminaries prior to 1941. The evolution of the plan of extermination was a direct result of the impossibility of the forced migration of over four million people in Europe alone. There is overwhelming documentary evidence that, after 1941, extermination was the Nazi panacea to the "question". -- Primaryspace 18:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: Migration was the original "solution". Hitler wanted the Jews deported, but the size of the population made it difficult logistically, and potentially devastating from an economic standpoint for any country(s) that accepted them. When that "solution" was not viable, the "final solution" was implemented.

The Wannasee Protocol seems to not be the source of the "final Solution" - of course if you read it.

"overwhelming documentary evidence" - finally I have found the source I have always wanted. By the way can you give links, etc to this evidence? Thank you very much!

[edit] The Final Solution

i am doing a research paper and im so confused right now i have no clue which information is which and im like so stressed out HELP ME email- baby_skittles_321@yahoo.com msn- missing_angel_321@yahoo.com -courtney

[edit] screaming

what does heinrich himmler and adolf hitler have to do with the Final Solution

Wikipedia is not really the forum to ask for homework help on a research paper, but, to give you a hint, Hitler ordered the Final Solution (the genocide of the Jews) sometime in 1941 and Himmler was one of the key officials in carrying it out. You can read the article, and the linked pages, for more information. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Well that is not verifiable, but your teacher probably wont have the knowledge or guts to give you less than an A.

[edit] The "Jewish Question"

I have redirected The Jewish Question and Jewish Question here. This article is about the so called "solution", but we would in fact need a separate article on the assumed question. The article should not study the "The Jewish Question", but the history of the term in it's use by the Nazis. Calling something in existence a "question" is a tool used by Hitler and previous demagogues to undermind the rights of the "questioned". -- Petri Krohn 00:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I've come here from Jewish Autonomous Oblast, so it was a bit o a suprise, I think there was also a "JQ" in many other countries. What the question was is elided by the circumlocution, but I think it was a customary style of the time, for example the Schleiswig-Holstein question of which Lord Palmerston, commented that only three people understood it "one is mad, one is dead, and I have forgotten." Rich Farmbrough 11:36, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Whether the 'Jewish Question' deserves an article on its own would depend on whether there is sufficient amount of material to justify it. However, this 'Jewish Question' or 'Jewish Problem' needs to be elaborated in this article as there is no explanation of what it is. It leaves readers in the dark as to why the German policy makers at that time viewed the problem to such an extent that requires such drastic measures. Also the statements, if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction , If the German people have to sacrifice 160,000 victims in yet another campaign in the east, then those responsible for this bloody conflict will have to pay for it with their lives and if the combined forces of Judaism should again succeed in unleashing a world war, that would mean the end of the Jews in Europe. Readers will be asking, what does all these statements mean? Why and how did the German authorities at that time came to view that it is the forces of Judaism that caused both world wars. The article would be more complete if these statements were explained. (218.208.212.191 07:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)).

I've changed the redirects for "Jewish Question" and "The Jewish Question" to the Marx essay On the Jewish Question. There now also exists a link to that article at the top of this one. 82.23.255.111 12:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the redirect to a disambiguation page, Jewish Question, which also briefly describes the use of the term before the Nazis, and contains links to the Marx article as well.--Goodoldpolonius2 17:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification needed

The article is a bit repetitititious, perhaps suggesting a merge in its past... here are the start and end of the second paragraph. I'd clean the redundance up, but can someone tell me which of the figures is right? --Kizor 18:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Mass killings of over one million Jews occured before the plans of the Final Solution were fully implemented in 1942, but it was only with the decision to eradicate the entire Jewish population that the extermination camps were built and industrialized mass slaughter of Jews began in earnest. [...] By spring of 1942, Operation Reinhard began the systematic extermination of the Jews, although hundreds of thousands had already been killed by death squads and in mass pogroms."

"which of the figures are right" - well none of them are right, but don't let that stop you.

Yeah, I've just noticed the discrepancy in the second intro paragraph ("one million" vs "hundreds of thousands" of Jews died before the FS). The above comment was made more than 2 years ago. I am frankly shocked and dismayed that such a glaring error had been left for 2 years, and in such a subject with so much active research. And then I noticed that this entire article generally lacks citation and is filled with speculation. This does not bode well. o (talk) 05:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Edit by 204.107.82.125

This edit may be genuine "evolution=nazism" fundamentalist idiocy, but I'm more inclined to suspect a troll or straightforward vandalism. Regardless, I removed it and restored the para the IP nuked (probably by accident, but who knows). I hope I didn't void anyone's edits. EdC 23:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

My memory says that Endlösung was the German term for what has become known as the Holocaust. Therefore AFAIK the Holocaust was the effectuation of the ideas presentaed as Endlösung. Shouldn't we merge the two articles and describing this more accurately? Nomen Nescio 12:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello Nomen, please read the definitions at the beginning of both articles. Their topics are quite different. Regards, gidonb 12:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, I see no difference in these statements:

• Endlösung German Nazis' plan to engage in systematic genocide against the European Jewish population during World War II.
• Holocaust the state-led systematic persecution and genocide of the Jews and other minority groups.

As I read it, and as I was taught, the Holocaust is the implementation of the Endlösung, but was not limited to Jews. Nomen Nescio 13:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. Thanks for putting the definitions here. As you can see, Endlösung refers to the German government policies and only towards the Jews. The Holocaust here refers to the policy outcomes and impacts of Nazi ideology and Nazi/German/European hatred on Jews, Poles, Roma, homosexuals, communists, Jehova witnesses, disabled etcetera. The differences are threefold: the scale of the discussion (policy vs. social process, policies and mostly outcomes: the Holocaust), the affected populations (Jews vs. Jews, Poles, Roma and all others) and the geography (Germany vs. Germany occupied Europe and North Africa). Regards, gidonb 13:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree the current breakdown makes sense, particularly in terms of the scale of the discussion. There is plenty to say about the policies, and it's an active area of scholarly research, so it makes sense to have it separate from the main Holocaust article. --Delirium 13:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Headers

This looks a bit jumbled, doesn't it? Shouldn't we split this blob of text up into seperate sections? -raylu^T 04:10, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

how can you have such a gigantic quote on the page without a citation - this is why wikipedia sucks!

This article is so full of speculation that it is almost stunning in its depth and breadth. It lacks citations - it will eventually have to ignore citations - that are absolutely not available and this late in history probably will never appear. Layer on layer of intrepretive reading/hoping almost makes a reader faint. Wouldn't it be better not to have this article than to have some future young scholar see it and start to search. Make believe it is a law of nature - something we assume without proof. Trying to prove everything leaves an awfully lot of loose threads - don't tempt a young thread puller.159.105.80.141 19:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] So much for "Final"

I want to point out that other than some Communist terrorists no French born Jews died in the time of this "Final Solution" in German occupied France. Not much of a "Solution".John celona 12:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Bite me Gzuckier 14:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No decisions were made during the Wannsee Conference

I want to point out that all decisions regarding the "Final Solution" had already been made. Heydrich used the Wannsee Conference to inform the rest of the Nazi bureaucracy what was going to happen (and already happening), and warned them not to try and interfere. It is unclear exactly when the decision was made to try and eradicate the jews and other 'undesirables' but it is clear that this decision was made in spring or summer 1941 at the latest. --81.68.98.95 19:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Execution?

Parts of the article describes the killing of Jews as executions. Shouldn't it be considered murder? Or is the NPOV rule gone anti-semitic?--68.45.82.237 (talk) 00:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Try a dictionary there champ, murder is the unlawful killing of another person, and execution is a state sanctioned killing. Whether you agree with Nazi ideology or not, the killings of all those people were sanctioned by the Nazi government. Calling them executions is in no way antisemitic, it's merely using the proper vocabulary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.141.250.149 (talk) 20:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the term

The term was not coined by Eichmann during the Wannsee conference. The first time the term Endlösung der Judenfrage appeared was in an 1899 party program of the anti-Semitic Deutschsoziale Reformpartei (see Wilhelm Mommsen, Deutsche Parteiprogramme, p. 84, a German excerpt can be found on page 19 here). The program came to the conclusion that the only way to find any "final" solution would be to remove all Jews from Germany, either by forced emigration, or even by physical annihilation. On June 24th 1940, Heydrich referred to the Madagascar Plan as territoriale Endlösung der Judenfrage in a letter to Ribbentrop, and it's interesting that Himmler in his communique on the Madagascar plan dating May 1940 noted that it would be "the only viable solution if one is morally opposed to the Bolshevic method of physically annihilating a people because of it being un-Germanic and unfeasable" ("die bolschewistische Methode der physischen Ausrottung eines Volkes aus innerer Überzeugung als ungermanisch und unmöglich") which is another hint that the genocide plans were around long before the attack on the Soviet Union beside Himmler's statement to his masseur Felix Kersten in early 1940 that Hitler personally wished all Jews to be exterminated. --TlatoSMD (talk) 02:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] spam in "final solution"

This line is included in the article: "But then the holocaust made everyone die and the world will come to an end in 2009" in the Madagascar Plan section. Perhaps the whole section is bad. Thanks, Ledette Ledette (talk) 19:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mass exterminations begun after Operation Barbarossa

See the new article on Holocaust in Lithuania, where several academic sources note that the mass exterminations / new phase in the Holocaust / Final Solution began as early as in the summer of 1941 (after the German invasion of Russia). There is a discussion on talk whether that article contradicts this one.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Final Solution" vs. "Final solution"

There should not be a capital "s" by WP policy.--Ludvikus (talk) 17:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why not Move it: Final Solution → Final solution

• What kind of "plan" was it? Is/was it a document prepared at the Wannsee Conference?
  • Then keep the capitalized "s."
• Or was is an expression for the unwriiten policy to exterminate the Jews?
  • The change "S" to "s."

--Ludvikus (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose as not usage. Capitalize, as the Holocaust and Sho'ah are capitalized, and for the same reason: it's a proper name, meaning this phase of the destruction. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Moved from RM:

• • Controversial. This is a proper noun. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
    • "The Final Solution" is a proper name? Aren't you confusing it with "The Holocaust"? What, exactly, does it name, some Book or Document, a Moment in Time, what? Ludvikus (talk) 14:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Yes, it is. The common noun-phrase final solution would be ambiguous with mathematics and chemistry. To quote the article: The implementation of the Final Solution resulted in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust. Discussion may overrule me; but there is something to discuss. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
• The original German form "Die Endlösung der Judenfrage" does not specify capitals because all German nouns have capitals. But in English the capitalized form is well established when it means the Holocaust. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "final solution of the Jewish question"

Lehrer, Stephen, Wannsee House and the Holocaust, p.143:

"Complementing the task already assigned to you in the directive of January 24, 1939, to undertake, by emigration or evacuation, a solution to the Jewish question as advantageous as possible under the conditions at the time, I hereby charge you with making all necessary organizational, functional, and material preparations for a complete solution of the Jewish question in the German sphere of influence in Europe. Insofar as the jurisdiction of other central agencies may be touched thereby, they are to be involved. I charge you furthermore with submitting to me in the near future an overall plan of the organizational, functional, and material measures to be taken in preparing for the implementation of the aspired final solution of the Jewish question".

• That's an exact quote I'm supplying. --Ludvikus (talk) 23:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• Accordingly the correct exact expression that should be the title of this article is as follows:

[edit] Final solution of the Jewish question

The above should be the title of our article here. --Ludvikus (talk) 23:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• I got that record/document quote from the Holocaust History Project here: [1]. --Ludvikus (talk) 00:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I do not take (a translation of) German documents as determining English usage, or ours. Whether the Nazis used this as a proper name is not the question here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Military history my foot! {{WPMILHIST|class=start|German=yes|WWII=yes}}

Why is this Tag at the top of our talk page? Are we really dealing here with military history? --Ludvikus (talk) 15:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

{{WPMILHIST|class=start|German=yes|WWII=yes}} Removed. --Ludvikus (talk) 01:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, certainly. The SS was a military force; what it was doing instead of fighting the Soviet Union is a part of military history. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Final Solution is a novel by Michael Chabon

That's no joke. I just discovered it. I guess you guys were unaware of it - that's why it wasn't disambiguated. --Ludvikus (talk) 02:21, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

And that's one reason this page doesn't use the, which does disambiguate. There's a naming convention on definite and indefinite articles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] www.shoaheducation.com or shoaheducation

Who knows what this cited site is: [2]? --Ludvikus (talk) 10:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

• We should be careful not to stumble on holocaust denial web pages and use the here as scholarly references. --Ludvikus (talk) 10:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe

How exactly - on what page - is the source of the coinage (Ludvikus (talk) 13:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)):

    The term was coined by Adolf Hitler as
    “Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe.”
    [1]
    The implementation of the Final Solution resulted in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust.

That's from our Page now. Can someone please Paste & Cut the alleged source of the "coinage" so we can all see it? --Ludvikus (talk) 13:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

What did Hitler do exactly, distribute an "order" to his ministers? Or is that the title of the above authors chaper? Common, people, 6,000,000 Jews died under the "plan" - so we should not be sloppy with our language regarding what happened to them. It is customary to show respect for the dead. That is not done by Wikipedia when the language we use is sloppy and inaccurate. I want to know exactly how this "REDIRECT" is justified. Ludvikus (talk) 13:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

See WP:Redirect. The only justification a redirect needs is that somebody is likely to type it in looking for a given article (this includes common mispellings), and that nobody is likely to type it looking for something else - in which case it is replaced by a dab header. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Die Endlösung der Judenfrage

I am not familiar with German capitalization rules. Can someone please advise us on that? --Ludvikus (talk) 16:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Simple. All German nouns and no German adjectives are capitalized in normal text, even proper adjectives like deutsche. (Proper names, like the names of organizations, are different; so are book titles.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. That's what I thought - but I wasn't 100% certain. And in this context 100% should be sought. Again, thanks a lot. I was beginning to worry that no one was listening. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unanswered Questions

The puning concerns this cited reference

• Unanswered Questions: Nazi Germany and the Genocide of the Jews

Schocken Books, (1989)

p. 182

ISBN 0805240519

• Can someone please Cut & Paste the exact text from p. 182 here? I do not have this book. Much appreciated. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question"

• If you want to use Heydrich's expression in the lead sentence, that's OK.
• Do it like this:

• "Final solution to the Jewish question."

• But how does one justify the violation of Wikipedia rules of capitalization with the creation of the tile:

• "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question"? "Her Heydrich" was no "scholar" - is he supposed to be the authority?
• This is merely picking of a phrase from his sentence - so be accurate about it.
• Is there a usage in the published literature that turns this into a proper noun or proper name?
• Why do such implicit, effective, honor, and dignify "Ubenstumffeurer"(sic) Heydrich?
• Am I making myself clear - or talking to the wall? Please, people, it would be nice to get some other voices heard. I really want us to go by consensus, though I'm convinced of my position. --Ludvikus (talk) 19:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I reproduce here (Cut & Paste) the archived vote reached previously (2006) for our easy reference: --Ludvikus (talk) 02:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Final Solution"

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Rename as "The Final Solution?"

• The Article name should be, I now think, "The Final Solution". --Ludvikus (talk) 20:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)