Talk:Filling station

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Filling station was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Delisted version: June 17, 2006

[edit] Reinstatement of pricing section

After noticing that a couple of photos had gone missing, I found that back in January the large section called "Price at the pump" was deleted[1] by user:Stephen Parnell without discussion and without moving it to a more appropriate article (There is an article on gasoline usage and pricing, but it contains none of the deleted material.). I'm sure this was a good faith edit, and I have no problem with his assertion that this article is better off without a long discourse on pricing, but the section was substantive and had been there for many months without objection. I think there should be some discussion about its value and a decision on which article is more appropriate for it. --Tysto 17:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing from GA list

This article has been removed from the good article list for not fulfilling the GA criteria:

1. It is poorly written and the structure does not present a logical flow
2. It contains no references to reliable sources
3. It is extremely US-centric and does not cover many obvious topics referring to the subject, like the discussion of storing gasoline etc.

This might become a very interesting and valuable good or even featured article, but still much work has to be done to improve it. Bravada, talk - 18:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gas prices

"In leftist-leaning countries such as Canada, Britain, and the European Union, gas prices are very high due to higher fuel excise or taxation (in order to fund costly social welfare programs)." - I might disagree with this POV. The article as a whole could do with a review? Palnu 07:39, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In the context of first world politics, they are left wing. Not saying anything about the quote, except that it's factually accurate. Not saying it belongs here, but...Meelar 07:50, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm still not too sure that the section as a whole is accurate. Aside from the political statement, I don't believe the reason for higher fuel prices is 'social welfare programs'. As a UK citizen, I would call it a 'stealth tax to allow lower income tax'. There doesn't seem to any evidence of a link to any particular spending - unlike tobacco duty, which is linked to health spending here. As a side note, I had to remove 'communist-leaning countries' a while back - I think perhaps someone is trying to make a point of view here. 'Leftist-leaning' is hardly the best way to express it, especially within a non-political article. I certainly agree the whole section needs looking at. High fuel prices is a contentious issue in the UK, so I don't think I am the best person for that (grin) akaDruid 14:45, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Also gasoline prices in Canada aren't that much higher than the United States.. http://www.petro-canada.ca/eng/prodserv/fuels/8741.htm

Took out for the purpose of social welfare programs. 1) Gas tax isn't earmarked for social welfare.

Roadrunner 20:08, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Where do you live? Prices here, taxes out, are about double the U.S. Trekphiler 05:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

In Southern Ontario when you remove all taxes the price of gasoline is comparable on a yearly average with the neighbouring jurisdiction in the US. Of course in Canada you do see more swings in prices than in the US. A 10-15% swing in a price overnight is not uncommon in Canada. In other areas of Canada further away from refineries, pipelines, or crude supply, (such as Yellowknife) the transportation costs account for a much higher proportion of the price of fuel. http://www.gasbuddy.com is great to compare US and Canadian Prices. EJ Erwin http://www.mjervin.com is a more scientific survey of Canadian Gas Prices. This is the one economists use for data on Canadian Fuel Prices. rasblue 00:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I should point out that in Ontario, Canada the gasoline tax is: ((price of fuel wholesale) + $0.10 Federal Gasoline Tax + $0.147 Provincial Gasoline Tax) x 7% GST. This usually works out to about $0.30/L. In the US, gasoline taxes are $0.184/Gallon Federal Tax + $0.07-$0.35/Gallon State Tax, with a few states adding a sales tax. Works out to be about $0.42/Gallon on Average, or about $0.11/L (US). rasblue 00:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The following text is disingenuous: "some of the major oil-producing countries such as Iran, Iraq, and Venezuela provide subsidized petrol at well below market prices. This practice tends to encourage heavy consumption." Lower prices do encourage consumption, but demand for oil is relatively inelastic. Even if one demonstrates that subsidized oil materially increases consumption, clearly a low tax environment does the same thing. To single out subsidies for comment shows poor reasoning or a hidden agenda.

[edit] Prince Edward Island

I should point out that the price of gasoline in PEI is not always the lowest in Canada and the tax structure is the main reason when its lower .Regulation in PEI ,Nova Scotia Quebec and New Brunswick are used to protect the retialer from fuctulation and in the case of Quebec they have a floor price ,they all have no protection for the customer --Pat 22:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't take this the wrong way but you really should check your spelling before you finalize your edit. rasblue 01:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CAA

Is CAA = "Canadian Aile Association" correct?

What does Aile mean?

Canadian Automobile Association

Tabletop 06:13, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gasoline prices in North America

Does anyone else who reads this article sense that it is pushing a specific POV? Namely, a defense of the average gas station manager? The factoid that gas stations have no control over the price of gasoline is repeated on every television news broadcast whenever prices go up; & being nothing more than the end supplier of this commodity, a moment's reflection would lead to the conclusion that blaming gas stations for gas prices is as useful as ranting at the average cashier in any department store.

Unless someone protests, I'm removing these apologetic passages in a week's time. The oil companies have enough money to pay for their PR; Wikipedia doesn't need to help them for free. -- llywrch 00:51, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, I protest. Station owners don't set prices, they take what the wholesaler gives them, who takes what the refiner gives them...which is why Canadian gas prices, taxes out, are double what they are in the U.S.: three refiners control about 90% of Canadian gas. Trekphiler 05:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The above is patently not true. If you compare the gasoline prices of two US/Can border communities where both communities do not impose special fuel requirements, and remove all taxes, at the pump, and at wholesale, the prices are about the same +/- 5%. Go to http://www.gasbuddy.com and compare. I'm not a shill, just an economist not employed in the energy or public sectors. rasblue 02:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that can be explained by competition. Just as Standard Oil would lower their prices where there was competition, border stations know they have to compete, and their prices reflect that. Once you move away from the border, you see an increase where the competition has been eliminated. CodeCarpenter 20:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name?

"Filling station" is a pretty minor term I rarely hear used; wouldn't "petrol station" (reflecting "petrol" being the official entry name for fuel), or even "gas station" (the usual term used in the United States and, I presume, also Canada) be a better name for this article, in light of those probably being the most frequently used terms for such a facility? The fact that the terms "filling station," "gas station" and "petrol station" get used interchangeably through the article might support such a name change. Anthony Dean 15:50, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

Filling station is probably used to prevent disputes over whether it should be gas station or petrol station, which was the case with the gasoline article whenever somebody moved it to petrol. Filling station also seems to be useable in all dialects. --/ɛvɪs/ /tɑːk/ /kɑntɹɪbjuʃ(ə)nz/ 17:05, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the current name was probably inspired by this section of the Manual of Style. --/ɛvɪs/ /tɑːk/ /kɑntɹɪbjuʃ(ə)nz/ 17:12, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Types of filling stations makes some strong generalizations

I can't say I agree with the generalizations that this article makes in the "Types of filling stations in the US". This is in regards to the descriptions of the premium-brand stations, and the discount-brand stations. Specifically:

They are also much more modern with brighter lighting and are cleaner. For ease and convenience, these stations have fully automated pay-at-the-pump facilities. Premium gas stations tend to be highly visible from highway and freeway exits as they use tall signs to display their logos.

And

In some cases, discount brands typically accept cash only and some may accept credit cards (sometimes with an additional surcharge). The customer would have to walk inside the store or up to the window to pay and obtain a receipt later. Many discount stations have few locations and, in some cases, appear outdated (i.e., non-digital readouts on pumps) and rundown. In addition, these discount gas stations are often located well away from the highway and freeway exits; many are obscurely tucked away in commercial and residential neighborhoods.

I've found this to be exactly the opposite in my area (Virginia), with the premium-brand stations being mostly dumpy and run-down, while many discount-brand stations (Sheetz and Liberty in particular) prominently display their prices along major highways, have clean, modern, and better-lit facilities, and consistently offer pay-at-the-pump.

This probably ought to be addressed, but I'm not entirely sure how best to tackle it. Schuminweb 04:11, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

• Agreed. The original editor seems to be relating personal experience, which probably varies greatly from region to region. --Tysto 21:47, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• I think he/she is referring to independent stations (not owned by a major company, no economy of scale or buying power), which have almost disappeared now. They generally have older equipment, but aren't necessarily rundown. Stations that charge extra for credit do so because the credit card companies charge them for it and they don't add it into the price for all customers like other stations. AM/PM also charges for credit, at least around California. As for being well kept, I haven't found any pattern - independent, brand name, high prices, low prices, rural areas, big cities. -- Kjkolb 15:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

For Wikepedia I think that we must move away from just a look at the US. This article is much too American in content and I hope to work on that soon (when I have time). I have a bit of expertise in this area...PaddyBriggs 17:45, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, the article claims that "today, few stations advertise full service." I still see full service stations everywhere. I dont know what they based that statement on.--Mattydp1215 03:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fuel grades

The author seems to concentrate too much on European grades and ratings of gasoline. A more complete discussion would mention the AKI metric commonly used ih the United States. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.216.122.126 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 22 September 2005.

[edit] Filling station experience

My father once went to a filling station in Espoo, Finland, to purchase new sparkplugs to replace faulty ones in his car's engine. It turned out that the staff at the station had never heard of sparkplugs. What is this world coming to? — JIP | Talk 19:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

He was in Europe where a large percentage of the population is anti-car. For example, the Green party is actually taken seriously at the national level in many European countries, while in the U.S. it is big news if a Green candidate can even make city council in a small city. I'm not surprised. --Coolcaesar 04:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

LOL, very funny. Most likely (if Finland is not too diffrent from Norway) it's because working at a filling station is considered a lown status which anyone can do. Making hot dogs is a more important qualification than any knowledge of car mechanics. Fornadan (t) 15:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Minimum age to fill a car?

Was once on a holiday in Scotland with my parents, and as I was filling up the rental car (I was 14 at the time), a gas station attendent came running out with a horrified look on his face. He shouted something like "you can't fill up that car, you have to be 16 years old!". It was very strange. Davez621 14:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

From Buckinghamshire County Council: "Petrol must not be sold to a person under 16. It is also an offence for a person under 16, to sell petrol and a person under 18 must not be left in charge of a petrol station." I found an unverified reference elsewhere that it was the Petroleum (Consolidation) Act 1928 that brought in this requirement, though I expect that's been amended by more recent legislation by now. Loganberry (Talk) 01:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't the one purchasing the petrol though. I was simply filling it up for my parents who were sitting in the car.Davez621 12:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

It's illegal for anyone under 16 to use petrol pumps in order to dispense petrol, at least in the UK. This is marked on each pump. I worry for wherever you come from if they let under 16s play with petrol. Rapido 00:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak for the original author, but here in the US (Florida), at least when I was a kid, I could buy gas whenever I wanted. How do you figure kids mow lawns for extra cash in the summer? CodeCarpenter 20:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You use petrol (gas) powered lawnmowers? Skittle 19:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV?

This seems to have a very strong U.S. bias, with almost no coverage elsewhere. For 1 instance, the first filling station was in Bordeaux 1895. And Canadians call 'em gasbars. Trekphiler 05:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Only in some parts of Canada are they called Gasbars, and that term is somewhat antiquated and leaving common usage as the older pre WW2 generation passes away. Similar to how in Western Canada a parking garage (term used in Central Canada) is called a parkade (derived from arcade). rasblue 02:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the POV issues on this article and flagged it. It's subtle, but there is a strnge undertone to the writing of this article. It is U.S.-centric, it seems to take political stands about gasoline taxes and pricing, it makes judgment calls about the qulity of various brands, and just overall has a kind of marketing piece feel. I think someone put a lot of work into it, and it could be a good article, but it needs a lot more work to get there. --Robb0995 20:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well technically the first gas station was in Wiesloch Germany, although not in the modern sense: The city pharmacy in Wiesloch was the first petrol station of the world, because Bertha Benz stopped here on august 5 1888 on her maiden voyage to refill the tank of the first automobile her husband, Karl Benz, invented.--Tresckow 06:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Jersey and Oregon

Woa. So they think that people are so stupid that they'll start everything on fire if they are allowed to fill up their own cars? But they can drive, right? Isn't that much more dangerous? It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Yeah. That's what happens when the people who work at gas stations have really, really good lobbyists (and don't care that their behavior is economically inefficient for everyone else). Unfortunately, that's the way democracy works. --Coolcaesar 06:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It's also because people take it upon themselves to fill up their cans on the back of their trucks. The vehicles can pick up a great deal of static charge during a journey, so along comes Buck, sticks in the metal pump into his metal can and starts the fuel. Next thing you know, the static has discharged and Buck's on fire, flambeed like Quang Duc. I'm sure that's part of the reason! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leopheard (talk • contribs) 10:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

My favorite is the Arco gas stations in Oregon. They make you go inside and pay for your fuel but will literally push you away from the pump nozzle if you dare touch it. rasblue 02:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

In Oregon they call the "full" service mini-serve. It is full service with only them pumping the fuel. No tire check or windshield (windscreen) cleaning. rasblue 02:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Even with full service I have noticed that gasoline is cheaper in NJ than in NY or CT both of which have self serve. I believe the idea behind mandatory full service was to ensure that a station was manned at all times (reduces crime) and for senior citizens and disabled folks. Bottom line, when driving from RI to NJ I always fill up in NJ. Don't have to pump it myself and cheaper. Good deal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.67.218.30 (talk) 19:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

About the supposed cost savings in Oregon (comparing fuel prices between stations in Portland and Vancouver, WA), it is a misnomer to assume that the reason for lower fuel prices in Oregon is related to the mini service law, it is in fact linked to Washington having a gas tax that is ten to fifteen cents higher than Oregon. Prior to the nickel gas tax increase in 2003, and the nine attitional cents added between 2005 and present, fuel in Washington was ten to fifteen cents cheaper than Oregon (between most expensive in the Vancouver area, and the cheapest in the Portland area) this needs to be addressed in the article. TEG 13:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet another example of how Stephen Colbert's writing team uses wikipedia as a source. They did a whole bit about how New Jersey people didn't know how to pump gas. They didn't mention Oregon though. CodeCarpenter 20:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I am surprised that this section did not mention the interest of Labor Unions in self-service. I do not know about Oregon, but New Jersey is something of a Union stronghold. The effect, whether intended or not, is more labor jobs in New Jersey. Can anyone confirm, are these Unionized workers? Have the Unions openly supported these laws and openly sought to suppress attempts to overturn these laws? The lobbyist mentioned, are these in fact Union lobbyists? Have Unions tried to have these laws passed in other states? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.69.248.21 (talk) 19:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historical names and combinations of companies

There have been numerous combinations and renamings of companies over recent years. Should this be referenced in this article, or perhaps as part of a different article?Paulmeisel 13:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess under a different article to keep things clean-cut--leopheard 10:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe it is covered under Standard Oil, since they all started out there, and are merging back there again. :) CodeCarpenter 20:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Google results:
1,290,000 for "filling station"
315,000 for "fueling station"

[edit] mini vs full service?

Can someone explain the difference? This distinction seems as outdated as the concept that someone is going to check your oil while they fill your tank. In NJ, the mandatory service involves the attendant pumping your gas and oftentimes cleaning your windshield and back window. How much "fuller" does service need to be to be considered "full"? —lensovet–talk – 23:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reads like it was written by Oil executives.

Every problem with prices blamed on taxes, says small stations are out of date, obscure, and unclean, while giving a link to Shell in the external links. Finally, makes it clear that high prices are not the fault of the owners, etc. I am surprised this article is even a former good article. It definitely needs work. More work than I can do alone. :) CodeCarpenter 20:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Premium vs Discount Brands

Why is Valero listed both as a Premium Brand and as a Discount Brand? Mrwhizzard 20:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pricing questions

It would be interesting to see a discussion these additional topics:

1. How in the US retail per-gallon prices are universally expressed in cents plus hundreds of cents. How did this get started? Why does it persist, as a lone example of pricing weirdness?

2. How filling station owners set the price of gasoline daily. Specifically, (a) what inputs are they using to tell them that overnight (or in the middle of the day) the retail price of gasoline should/could move up? Clearly, in changing prices they are often responding to events far beyond the local market for gasoline, e.g., you'll hear that gas prices rose on a given day because of "concerns" about potential supply disruptions in the Middle East. OK, but how does my local gas station owner know how to react to that, by raising the price three cents, say, versus ten cents? Do the oil wholesalers, for instance, supply price data down to the local level? (b) If gas station owners are buying gasoline in large quantities (think of the big tankers) at wholesale, do they ever lose money because they paid $X/gal expecting to sell for $X-plus-something/gal when subsequent supply/demand dynamics push the retail price down to $X-MINUS/gal? Or do they have ways of protecting themselves against this sort of thing? This seems like a huge risk. McTavidge 18:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Although I'm a couple of months late, I can answer your second question, having worked part-time for a number of years at a gas station. Those small daily increases and decreases in price have nothing to do with things going on around the world. They are simply adjusting the prices to remain competitive with stations nearby, since they are competing for the same customers. As part of my job, I occasionally was assigned the task of driving around and checking the competitors prices. As for the second part of your question, the station I worked for never sold gas below wholesale price (that I know of), even when the competitor closest to us was 10 cents cheaper. I can remember one instance when the owner was displeased that the gas price was placed below the wholesale price and ordered it up so that it at least made some profit. These are just my own observations, and I'm not sure if it's done different elsewhere.--Boznia 16:26, 5 October 2007 (UTC)