Talk:Fen

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[edit] Latin and place names

I rewrote this entire paragraph, changing only the grammar. However, I feel there are problems with this section beyond its confusing grammar (hopefully now fixed; as someone who worked as a professional copy editor, I know how to write sentences that make sense, and are not only grammatically accurate, but are also as elegant and laconic as possible).

The problems I see in the section is that there are many assertions of factual statements that are uncited. In addition, there does not seem to be a point to the paragraph; or rather, its point is somewhat off-topic for the article. I do not think the paragraph should be removed, but the *MAIN PROBLEM* is that its statements are ***ALL UNCITED***. I don't know about the subject and am not good at research. Whoever wrote the sentence, or someone with good research skills, would be greatly appreciated if they could solve this instance of Citation(s) Needed. The lack of citations on Wikipedia is its biggest problem. I will mark the entire section as needing citations, rather than labelling individual sentences; that would be too much, as I'd have to mark >50% of the sentences.

If anyone disagrees with my evaluation or edits to the article, feel free to discuss here on the talk page, whether or not you make an edit to the section or not. GngstrMNKY (talk) 19:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where does fen end and bog start?

This article represents a relatively narrow definition and discussion of fens, in part due to a simple regional bias. Fens, especially as they are understood in the North American literature, may also be defined as groundwater-fed minerotrophic ("mineral-fed") wetlands with an accumulation of peat or marl substrate. Fens have been divided into broad categories according to the degree of mineral influence and richness in base cations such as calcium and magnesium. "Rich fens" are those with the greatest enrichment in such cations, followed by "medium" or "transitional fens", and finally "poor fens", which are similar in chemistry and flora to true bogs.

The discussion of the successional place of these systems could also use some additional information. In places with sufficiently cool and moist climate, paleoecological studies have shown that the formation of fen communities often begins with pooled water in topographic depressions and leads to the eventual build-up of peat above the influence of mineral-containing waters, producing a rain-fed or "ombrotrophic" bog. To the limited extent that a "climax community" is still considered a valid concept, open bogs or forested peatlands may be considered the climax community. In warmer or drier areas formation of bogs is not seen, rather fen communities may vary between forested and open status depending on outside "allogenic" factors such as grazing, fire, or flooding.

Examples of plants indicative of fen communities in northeastern North America are:

Rich fens: Brown mosses (Amblystegiaceae) Carex flava - yellow sedge Carex stricta - tussock sedge Potentilla fruticosa - Cinquefoil Senecio aureus - golden ragweed Thuja occidentalis - northern whitecedar

Medium and poor fens: Sphagnum mosses Carex lasiocarpa - wooly-fruit sedge Eriophorum vaginatum - tussock cottongrass Rhynchospora alba - White beakrush Chamaedaphne calyculata - leatherleaf Vaccinium macrocarpon - cranberry Larix laricina - tamarack

While the freedom of availability of nutrients may be relevant to a discussion of fens, in as much as it varies the flora within the fen habitat group to some extent, in general, the considerations listed above seem relevant to the Wetland article which differentiates (perhaps not clearly enough) between the various habitats. It may be that various people have their different terminologies (cf the bog/moor distinction) but it remains that a bog is a very different habitat from a fen, though the two may be physically alongside eachother. Confusing the two classes of habitat will not enlighten anybody.
While that distiction is obvious in the field, we are speaking to people who are at home in front of a computer. The concept therefore needs to be carefully maintained.
  • The flora you list for a rich fen is the flora of a fen.
  • The flora you list for medium and poor fens is that of a bog. (In both cases, in so far as I know American species.)
Regarding your second paragraph: I shouldn't think anybody would argue with you but, though it might find a place in the fen article, its real home is in the wetland one. :) (RJP 17:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Defining a fen as a successional sere

I changed the definition at the beginning of the article, but retained later material on succession. Thanks to RJP for comments. Wachholder0 23:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I have heard that the name of the Finland country come from «Fen Land». Is that true? Just passing throught user.

[edit] What is Carr?

The redirect page Carr (fen) points here, but the the only reference in the article to Carr is in a sub-heading under Flora. If we are going to keep the redirect, we need something in the article lede to define what Carr is, and hence why the reader has been redirected here. Otherwise it would be better to turn Carr (fen) back into a redlink, so at least we know that we don't know what it is. -- Chris j wood 12:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Fen v. Bog

We have:

  • Fens are often confused with bogs, which are fed primarily by rainwater and often inhabited by certain sphagnum moss, making them acidic.
  • Fens are characterize by their flora, which can include both Sphagnum mosses when pH is low and surface water dominates, or brown mosses when groundwater dominates.
  • From Wetland
    • A bog or muskeg is acidic peat land (peat bog).
    • A fen is a freshwater peat land with chemically basic (which roughly means alkaline) ground water. This means that it contains a moderate or high proportion of hydroxyl ions (pH value greater than 7).

This is neither clear nor helpful. Are we saying acidic=>bog, not acidic=>fen? Or not? --Rumping 14:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)