Wikipedia:Featured article review/Holkham Hall

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[edit] Holkham Hall

This article, actually with FA status, is not worthy of have the brown star. I think this because the following motivations:

  • Bad referenced: a lon bibliography and some external links, but where are the notes? The second note needs a reference -_- ;
  • Bad article organization: there isn't a paragraph for the history, because all is mixed in the various paragraphs (example: in "Interior" there is some history);
  • There aren't the links to the dates and to the years.

This isn't a good example for new users that are searching an example for FA. Mojska all you want 10:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Notifications request Request Please complete the nomination by following the instructions at the top of WP:FAR to notify significant contributors and relevant WikiProjects, and post the notifications back to the top of this FAR. Thank you. --Regents Park (roll amongst the roses) 12:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

  • "Bad referenced": what does "a lon bibliography" refer too? The article contains a reference section, listing 11 books.
  • "Bad article organization ": for my money, to follow the fates of the house—re-building, additions, etc— from the early 18th century up to today is the only reasonable structure for this type of subject, and makes for a vigorous, enjoyable reading experience. How else would you organize it?
  • "There aren't the links to the dates and to the years ": no, there aren't, and there aren't supposed to be. "Links to date elements that do not contain both a day number and a month are not required; for example, solitary months, solitary days of the week, solitary years, decades, centuries, and month and year combinations. Such links must not be used unless the reader needs to follow the link to understand the topic; see WP:CONTEXT."[1]
  • "This isn't a good example for new users that are searching an example for FA." Yes, it is. Bishonen | talk 14:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC).
  • Footnotes are fundamental for a FA, and this article has only 2 notes !! The article may be more tidy: History --> Architecture [subparagraphs] --> Modern history. What of these books do you get for say that "The cost of the construction of Holkham is thought to have been in the region of £90,000 (allowing for inflation, approximately £8m in 2006)" or "building was to continue for thirty years until in 1764 the great house was completed". I want to translate this article in Italian, but there aren't many references (for references I say footnotes). Can you save it? Thanks. Mojska all you want 17:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
As it happens, the main author (who you're asked to notify, please see Regents Park's post above) is himself Italian, User:Giano II, see the FAC nomination and discussion. I suggest you contact him at his user talk. That might be simpler than listing it on this board. (And perhaps more likely to meet with success than opening with telling him how bad you think it is.) Just a suggestion. Bishonen | talk 19:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC).
  • I agree that this article is not up to FA status. The criteria for wikipedia is verifiability and the way it is written, none of this can be verified. It doesn't have any in-line references, merely a list of sources. As there is no indication of what text comes from which sources it is impossible to tell who made the rather sweeping statements, and which of them (if any) are the personal interpretation of the contributor. For instance:

"Holkham Hall is one of England's finest examples of the Palladian revival style of architecture, the severity of the design being closer to Palladio's ideals than many of the other numerous Palladian style houses of the period." Who says so?

"It is thought he first met Burlington, the aristocratic architect at the forefront of the Palladian revival movement in England, and William Kent in Italy in 1715; it is possible that there in the original home of Palladianism, the idea of a new mansion at Holkham was conceived" It is thought by whom? These are just weasel words if they are not attributed to someone.

"The external appearance of Holkham can best be described as a huge Roman palace. However, as with most architectural designs, it is never quite that simple. Holkham is a Palladian house, and yet even by Palladian standards the external appearance of Holkham is austere and devoid of ornament (see illustration)." Who says it can be best described as a Roman Palace? The rest of it sounds very POV to me. "See Illustration" sounds like "it's obvious- just take a look"

"The Palladian style was beloved by Whigs such as Thomas Coke, who liked to identify themselves with the Romans of antiquity" Did they - who says so?

"Above the windows of the piano nobile, where on a true Palladian structure the windows of a mezzanine would be, there is nothing. The reason for this is the double height of the state rooms on the piano nobile; however, not even a blind window is permitted to alleviate the severity of the facade" Who says that's the reason?

"This vast cost nearly ruined the heirs of the 1st Earl, but had the result that they were financially unable to alter the house to suit the whims of taste. Thus, the house has remained almost untouched since its completion in 1764. Today, this perfect, if severe, example of Palladianism…………etc." These sort of assertions need to be verifiable and at the moment they aren't"

The section on "The estate, park & gardens" had developed into an awful mess until I tidied it up a week or so ago, so I do get the impression that nobody is really keeping an eye on the article to ensure it keeps its FA status. However, having said that, there do seem to be some wp:ownership issues here. Someone flagged up the problem with references with a "nofootnotes" tag and User:Giano II removed it and left the following comment in the edit summary " it is quite clear to me! If you hava a problem do some research." Well if he wrote the article then it would be clear to him wouldn't it? Richerman (talk) 11:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Since I avoid working on articles with FA status, I hope that someone will notify me when this one is de-listed, so I can begin footnoting the obvious assertions and mainstream observations. --Wetman (talk) 00:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)