Wikipedia:Featured article review/Excel Saga

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[edit] Excel Saga

Notified: WP:Anime, WP:COMEDY, User:Monocrat, User:Grm wnr

On March 28th, I posted this note to the talk page noting that the article no longer met the FA criteria: "This article really needs a work over to bring it inline with the MOS and with WP:LEAD. It was promoted to FA almost 2 years ago, but if it were back up for FA, it would fail miserably. Anyone willing to tackle the needed MOS and lead fixes?" The note went unanswered until May 15th, when the original primary contributer who put it in the current format only argued that his format was better. No substantive work was done to bring it inline, nor any discussion on other issues. As I feel more than enough time has been given to do anything at all, I'm now bringing here for formal review. I feel the article fails the following criteria:

  • 1a: It is not well written, with tone and prose issues throughout
  • 1b: It is missing some of the very basic information required for anime/manga articles, like the manga serialization and publication information, and anime airing and release information (some of this appears to have been shoved off to List of Excel Saga media, which is an inappropriate per project consensus
  • 1c: It has some unsourced statements, including interpretative statements; some of the "refs" are not references at all, including 1, 2, 4, 10-15, 24, 27, 28, 30, 43; many of those are personal notes that are also unreferenced. Ref 21 is an IMDB trivia page. Ref 41 is a dead link to a retail site. Several other references are non-reliable, including Anime Boredum and Digitally Obsessed.
  • 2a: fails WP:LEAD and doesn't follow the general construction of anime/manga series leads
  • 2b: badly fails this; does not follow WP:MOS-AM at all; structure is jumbled and confusing, jumping from place to place, with the plot badly mixed with interpretative statements. I attempted to fix the MoS issues but couldn't because of the odd sections and mixed up content within each.
  • 2c: Not all refs properly formatted, and ref 31 combines 8 refs in one
  • 3: at times it fails this, current discussion on going over excessive non-free images; also disagreement on whether infobox image is appropriate, or if it should be using the first volume instead of the selected volume preferred by the uploading editor "for aesthetic reasons"
  • 4: Seems to have excessive plot summary

-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

  • 1a. I'll copy-edit as time permits. Two years have passed, so I should be less close to the text.
  • 1b. Fair point about the serialization data. I'm just not sure where to find it, which of course is not your problem. :)
  • 1c. Specific thoughts to follow at a later time. It would be immediately helpful in focusing efforts, though, if citation-needed tags were applied as desired. Also, the worst offending notes will be removed, although I think the Anime Boredom and Digitally Obsessed survive WP:V#Self, though I suppose that's for this room to decide. Is the "best there is" still relevant precedent?
  • 2a. I'll look into this once the body is taken care of.
  • 2b. The only real difference between this and the structure suggested by WP:MOS-AM is that what would normally be two separate sections are merged under one H2 tag. I'm inclined to agree that it needs condensing; perhaps even transferring to the section's introduction a few details from each of the first three subsections and deleting what remains of them.
  • 2c. Will look into this generally. On the specific point of note 31, I'm not sure how to "improve" it. Wouldn't eight separate footnote-call-outs in one sentence would be a bit excessive, especially when the underlying point is not under dispute? Still, advice is solicited and welcome.
  • 4. If anything, there's too much character material. See response to 2b.
--Monocrat (talk) 02:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
In another recent conversation, I think a PR in prep for FLC, it was agreed that Anime Bordom did not meet RS. And I don't think "the best there is" would work for what those items reference. Excel Saga should have plenty of coverage in reliable sources that should negate need to use those less reliable ones. For the serialization data, however, Anime News Network is a WP:RS, so it can be used if nothing else is available. Actually, now that I think about it, I did say I was going to clean up the media list and properly split it into an episode and chapter list. The leads for those include the serialization data, so if you want to concentrate on fixing the other issues, I'll work on those two which will provide the info that can be dropped into the appropriate manga and anime media sections (when they exist) :)
Also, the article does not follow WP:MOS-AM in other ways than just the two sections merged into one. It has no media section at all. The Plot section isn't a plot section at all, with the odd sectioning, and characters should be separate. Its lacking a production section, with the information instead spattered throughout the article. Its something I originally intended to try and fix, but I just couldn't sort out the contents in the individual sections well enough to do it.
For ref 31, I'd make the sentence more specific (I believe "several" is a general no no in prose), and then ref each instance individually. This is what was done in some others that have topped the charts. Google Books bring up a few possible hits, and it does appear in the Anime Encyclopedia (possibly other anime/manga books as well). -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
"Several" is gone from that sentence, but I'm unconvinced about separate notes. Could we table that for now? You're right about the media section. Sorry for not noting that; I was focusing on your specific mention of the character/plot situation. We will have to iron out our differences about the plot section over the coming days, though my goal is to render it moot. While I'd appreciate a link to that discussion about Anime Boredom, I'd rather let this room make the final call on which of the sources are acceptable. And "should have plenty of coverage in reliable sources" and "has plenty of coverage in reliable sources" are two separate things. :-) I would gladly be proved wrong, though! --Monocrat (talk) 03:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Here ya go, took me a bit to remember where it was LOL Wikipedia:Peer review/List of Naruto characters/archive1. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 03:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! I've looked into Anime Boredom, and they seem to have scored about thirty interviews with industry types (exclusively anglophone industry-types, as far as I can tell, though); they've been operating for about four years, and three of the main reviewers Joseph (Joe) Woods, David Rasmussen, John Huxley have put out quite reviews that seems roughly comparable to ANN's. (Rasmussen alone has about 27 interviews to his name.) I can't tell how selective they are in letting people write reviews, although they seem to let people have pen-names, which costs them a bit in my book. Not sure how much this buys in terms of WP:RS, but there it is.--Monocrat (talk) 04:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
That's more than enough; the site meets the guidelines requirements. In the link provided by Collectonian there was no actual argument against the site: Collectonian didn't know it, and Sephiroth BCR just said "cut the site". In any case, the site doesn't need to be "notable"; it needs to reliable. This is important because having some notability, that is to be cite or quoted in other sites or sources, doesn't mean the site is reliable. Kazu-kun (talk) 04:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)