Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Albion (Gundam)/archive1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Albion (Gundam)

This is an article that I have been working on for quite some time now, and I think it has a good chance of becoming featured. This article deals with the Pegasus-Class Assault Carrier Albion, which was the main ship in the anime series Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory. I do ask one favor though: have some patients if I don't get back to your comments and suggestions as quickly as I should. Collage work is demanding, and school of nessesity must come before Wikipedia. This is definatly a self nomination. TomStar81 05:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Object
    1. The image Image:Albion subclass MS carrier.jpg has no source information, and there is no evidence of how the quoted FAQ applies to the image.
    2. The image Image:EFSF2.PNG has no source information, and is listed on WP:PUI.
    3. The images Image:Albion at Torrington.jpg, Image:Albion and MS.jpg do not indicate the creator/copyright holder or source of the image, and do not have a fair use rationale. Further, these images don't add significantly to the article, and aren't under a free license, so I'd suggest simply removing them entirely.
    4. The article has far too much coverage of "Albion as a ship in Gundam" and no coverage of "Albion as a fictional starship".
  • Honestly, unless there's a lot more to say about this article than I expect, I'd suggest condensing the "ship history" section down to a paragraph or two and look for another article to merge it into. --Carnildo 06:43, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
1.The image Image:Albion subclass MS carrier.jpg has no source information, and there is no evidence of how the quoted FAQ applies to the image.
Could I pester you to get a little bit more specific with this part of your objection? Rather basically speaking, the source is the website mahq.com, and they allow anyone use of their images for any reason. If you want specifics, I could add that its use is for illistrative purposes. Would that work?
2.The image Image:EFSF2.PNG has no source information, and is listed on WP:PUI.
Actually, if you look back you will see that this picture was deleted once before only to be resurrected by User:Name under a new name. If User:Name would bother adding a website for us we could get around this particular fiasco, but at the moment I cannot give and adequete defense if this pic. If User:Name fails to put a website source for the photo then by this time tommarrow I will remove it from the article.
3.The images Image:Albion at Torrington.jpg, Image:Albion and MS.jpg do not indicate the creator/copyright holder or source of the image, and do not have a fair use rationale. Further, these images don't add significantly to the article, and aren't under a free license, so I'd suggest simply removing them entirely.
From Wikipedia: What is a Featured Article?: It should have images where appropriate, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status... Given this, I think the images are apropraite. The first image illistrates the size of Albion in realtion to other buildings and vehicals, and also gives a nice ariel view of what a Pegasus-Class Assault Carrier looks like. The second picture demonstrates the type and size of the mobile suits Albion carries. Since the article deals with a fictional ship in an anime series the fact that the images are all fair use is something you're just going to have to accept, unless of course you want to spend two weeks with me hand drawing the pictures so we can put a PD liscence on them :)
4.The article has far too much coverage of "Albion as a ship in Gundam" and no coverage of "Albion as a fictional starship".
Albion is a ship in Gundam. The Gundam universe is centered around the Mobile Suits, which is why this article stands out. Trying to remove Albion from the Gundam Universe would be like trying to remove Enterprise from Star Trek: the underlining message would be "good luck with that".
5....unless there's a lot more to say about this article than I expect, I'd suggest condensing the "ship history" section down to a paragraph or two and look for another article to merge it into.
I and to other users had this discussion before over the United States battleship Missouri. The page deals with one ship from a class of ships, so anyone coming to this page ought to be interrested in the ships history and its lifespan. Merging the article would only ensure that the ship and it details get lost in the site. TomStar81 21:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
With regards to Image:Albion subclass MS carrier.jpg, I assume that it is not an image they made themselves. Therefore it is either a scan or a screenshot, and thus there needs to be an indication of what it is a scan or screenshot from. If it is from a copyrighted work, it also needs a "fair use" rationale.
Image:Albion at Torrington.jpg doesn't do a good job of indicating scale; the size information in the infobox does a better job. And Image:Albion and MS.jpg doesn't really show much of anything -- it's too dark, too small, and not from a good angle. Since Wikipedia is a free content encyclopedia, "fair use" and other non-free images should only be used if nothing else will work, and in this case, the infobox is sufficient.
Yes, Albion is a ship in Gundam. But the article is written from the point of view of an author living in the Gundam universe, not from the point of view of an author here on Earth. For an article in Wikipedia, that needs to be changed. And once you stop writing from within the Gundam universe, a lot of the information in the "ship history" section becomes a lot less important. --Carnildo 00:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Couldn't writting from the point of an author in the Gundam universe be an advantage? As it stands at least three other universal century pages — White Base, Grey Phantom, and Ra Cailum — are written in this manner, and I do believe that the Archangel class MS Carriers from the alternative Cosmic Era are also written as such. I'm sorry, but I still fail to see how this style of writting subtracts from the overall quality. From my POV this is no different than detailing a real ship's history. TomStar81 01:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
It might be an advantage for a Gundam-centered encyclopedia. This is a general-knowlege encyclopedia. Compare our article on USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) with that of Memory Alpha: MemoryAlpha:USS Enterprise (NCC-1701). --Carnildo 06:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Object a) fails to cover influence in real world: how many models etc. sold? b) comments in footnotes should rather be part of respective articles (e.g. courts martial) use HTML comments if aiming at editors,\. c) history should focus on ship d) history should be more condensed anyway e) fails to cite sources enough; not clear which would cover whichf) fails to mention artistic history; what similar previous ships have existed in past other stories. g) the last picture is too dark, using only about 1/5 to 1/4 of the JPEG dynamic range. h) language like "both were sunk" means "both were destroyed" I understand. Convert to standard usage rather than one which from Gundam. Mozzerati 18:45, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
1. fails to cover influence in real world: how many models etc. sold?
I have yet to find model information for this ship. I know that models of the ship have been sold because I can find a limited number of people who have bought and constructed them, but there really isn't a public figure that reports on this.
2. comments in footnotes should rather be part of respective articles
Accoriding to Wikipedia: What is a Feature Article? such an article should be well written and comprehensive. Adding information about the Republic of Zeon and the Earth Federation into the article would subtract from the article by deviating from Albion, which is why the first two notes are at the bottom. The note about the court martial is their because I hope that people will read it before they incorrectly correct the word to say "court martials" instead of "courts martial".
3. history should focus on ship
I belive that it is focused on the ship, so you are going to have to explain what mean on this one.
4. history should be more condensed anyway
Compared to other articles the history is condensed. This is one ship, and its history is long enough to cover all the important points and short enough to hold an attention span.
5. fails to cite sources enough; not clear which would cover which
By its very nature the ships history is taken from the primary source Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory. Most books and websites only give overviews of the story, not of the ship. Its not that I don't want to add more sources, its just that finding a needle in a mountain of needles is difficult.
6. fails to mention artistic history; what similar previous ships have existed in past other stories
I'm not sure what you mean by articstic history, but Albion is the 7th Pegasus-Class Assault Carrier, so if you're looking for information regarding the previous ships of the class I suggest checking out Pegasus page, which was created with just exactly this situation in mind.
7. the last picture is too dark, using only about 1/5 to 1/4 of the JPEG dynamic range
The picture is set in space, and space is dark; Screenshots such as this tend to be reduce portions of the original work. The size and color of the picture are beyond my abilty to fix, which is limited to inserting and removing them from the text.
8. language like "both were sunk" means "both were destroyed" I understand. Convert to standard usage rather than one which from Gundam.
That I can do, but I can't garantee that either of us will like the result. TomStar81 21:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. Sigh. Please don't nominate animecruft like this. It's of very little value except to diehard fans. While I'll probably get the usual protests from every other anime fans and their dog who claim that "all article are equal", this one simply isn't. It's not useful as information about either anime or the series itself. Please concentrate on FAC:ing higher level articles (Gundam) instead of minutiae. Try to rise just a little bit above your own interests and think "how does this help others to better understand my interests". In this case, it simply doesn't unless you're already a pretty devout Gundam or action anime fan. / Peter Isotalo 06:45, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
This comment reads like an objection (it is hardly supportive). As such, nothing can be done in principle to "fix" the source of this objection. It can therefore be ignored. The precedent is that subject matter is never a valid reason to reject an article from Featured status. What makes a subject interesting or boring is in the eye of the beholder. If an article has the rigor to be Featured, that alone makes it of sufficient interest. --Susurrus 11:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Err, it's not an objection because there is nothing in the criteria that dictates that common sense should be used when nominatin for FAC. This, just like spoo, is not common sense. And please note that it's not due to hatred for all things sci-fi or anime or comletely subjective epithets like "boring" or "interesting", but because it's of virtually no use to people who aren't already die-hard fans. If I want to inform people about Danish, I do it by first FAC:ing the actual main article or maybe something like Danish phonology, not by starting a sub-sub-sub-article on the subject of Schwa-assimilation in Standard Copenhagen Danish and trying to push that as "the best of Wikipedia". It's correct if you only consider policy, but that's about it.
Peter Isotalo 16:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Common sense is also in the eye of the beholder. Who cares whether the information is of "use" to anybody? Ninety percent of the information in this encyclopedia is useless and it can still get featured. If he can develop an article about Albion with enough rigour to get it featured, that's fine. If you can write about schwa-assimilation to Featured quality, that's fine. It matters how good the article actually is and not what it's about. As far as I'm concerned that is common sense. --Susurrus 12:43, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Object. It's a long way from an encyclopedia article; it's just a superficial account of a story that is of no interest to the public at large. Why has it been nominated for FA status? The lead dives in as though we're all familiar with the topic: is it a film, a computer game, or what? Why not let people DO it, rather than read about it here? Prose is faulty, opaque, and unexplained in various places. Text is jammed up against the text box at right. Second image way too dark. It's just twaddle. Tony 13:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Be careful with that "public at large" line, unless you've gone out an interviewed people regarding this articles and is FAC canidacy you're only speaking for your self. TomStar81

I trimmed the article dawn some. Let me know if this is an improvement. TomStar81 22:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)