Talk:Faiyum

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[edit] Redirected?

I removed the redirect to talk:Faiyum Governorate and put a see also link in THIS article to Faiyum Governorate as this needs to have its own talk page, not redirected to another. - Jeeny Talk 06:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Al Fayyum

This article makes a broad assumption about Greek settlers which can be misleading without representing other settlements and inhabitants. I will get back to this when I have more time to elaborate. - Jeeny Talk 06:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fayyum vs Faiyum

I put a request for moving this page from Al Fayyum to Faiyum. All my English references list the name as Faiyum, and "Al Fayyum" is a mere transliteration from Arabic. What do you guys think? Thanks. --Lanternix 01:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

  • The modern Arabic is Al-Fayum. I think, Fayum is better, than Faiyum. I would wait for more consensus. Maybe redirects? There's Fayoum, Al Fayoum, Al Fayum, Fayum, Fayyum and El Faiyûm. whew! How about getting Egyptians to comment on this, most speak English?

Here is something about the name:

The Fayum
The name of the Fayum province

In a few texts from the Old Kingdom the Fayum is known as Sy-rsy "the southern lake" [Piacentini 1997, pp.21-24]. From the Middle Kingdom onwards the traditional name of the Fayum is tA Sy, "the land of the lake" (Wörterbuch V, p.226) or tA Sy Sbk "land of the lake of Sobek" (for instance in the Kahun papyri) and its synonym pA ym, "the lake", a Semitic loan word, which replaced sy from the New Kingdom onwards. In hieroglyphic texts the old name lives on into the Ptolemaic period, e.g. on the statue of Anchouy, governor of the Fayum (TA-Sy) in the time of Nectanebo or even Ptolemy I [Vandersleyen 1999, fiche 150, p.255] or in the nome processions [Yoyotte 1962b, p.104]. The learned hieroglyphic language even used the famous wAD wr "the Great Green" for the Fayum lake [Yoyotte 1962b, p.91 and n.2; Vandersleyen 1999, pp.75-77]. In documentary demotic texts from the 6th to the 2nd centuries BC the Fayum is called pA tS n p3 ym, "the nome of the lake" (e.g. P.Mallawi dem. 1-3; P.Lille dem. I 32 l.13). The Greek translation hJ Livmnh is only found in a few documents dated before 257 BC. In P.Rev. Laws col.71 l.10; P.Petrie III 56a l.7 and 56b l.13, three texts from about 259 BC, Livmnh becomes "officialised" into Limnivth". Shortly afterwards the nome was renamed Arsinoites nomos after queen Arsinoe II, who was deified by her brother Ptolemy II immediately after her death in 270 BC [for the death of Arsinoe, see Cadell 1998 and Minas 1998, p.43 n.1]. It took another ten years before this new honour was added to the many others, since the earliest examples date from about 257 BC (P.Col. Zen. II 62, l.10; PCZ I 59041 l.3). The change of name was also followed in demotic, where all official and notarial documents now have pA tS n ArsynA, "the nome of Arsinoe", though here the old name is used unofficially at least up to the 2nd cent. BC, e.g. in P.Oxf. Grifftih 28 (132 BC). With a short interruption during the invasion of Antiochos IV in 168 BC , when the nome was officially styled "Krokodilopolites" (P.Teb. III 698), the name Arsinoites was to last for over a thousand years, until the very end of the Byzantine period. It even led to a name change of the nome capital into "city of the Arsinoites", short "Arsinoe". But probably the native Egyptians continued to call it "the lake district" in ordinary conversation, and in Coptic the old Egyptian name P3-ym reemerges as Peiom (Sahidic), Phiom (Bohairic), Piam (Fayumic), used both for the nome (tosh, tash) and for its capital (polis) (cf. Roquet 1973, p.4). The modern Arabic name Al-Fayum (and Medinet Al-Fayum) directly descends from this [cf. Vycichl 1983, p.64].

- Jeeny Talk 01:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I would go with whatever gets the most hits (and create redirects for the rest per Jeeny), but either way "Al Fayyum" really needs to go. — Zerida 02:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Zerida, what do you think the name should actually be? Faiyum? You are from Egypt and USA, and I'm sure you know much better than I. I would respect whichever you suggest. - Jeeny Talk 03:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, Faiyum actually corresponds better with the proper local pronunciation, so I can see why Lanternix would want to use that transliteration (in addition to the references he uses). So, if you want my opinion as someone from Egypt, I would go with Faiyum. However, I think the standard on Wikipedia is to go by the number of Google hits, so I am not so sure. We may need to pull other opinions. — Zerida 04:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your response, Zerida. As for Google hits, I remember being reprimanded before when I used that as an argument (I forget the context and the subject off hand). Someone posted a link (which I didn't click), but I assumed it was meant that the number of Google hits was not a good argument to justify something or another. I'll try to find that in Wiki guidelines, somewhere -- or better yet, I'll ask someone who is familiar with Wiki policies regarding Google.--- Well, on second (3rd?) thought; Since you and Lanternix agree to the same name, perhaps Lanternix can help with the renaming and the best way to do so, without losing the direction to any related topics. (In other words, forget everything I said before. Faiyum it should be! :)- Jeeny Talk 04:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey guys, thanks for helping out with this! All the sources I use, such as "Cultural Atlas of Ancient Egypt, by Baines and Malek" use Faiyum. I'm an Egyptian and would agree with Zerida that Faiyum is the best transliteration of the name. Al Fayyum is blatantly wrong and really needs to go. Thanks again guys. --Lanternix 00:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I took care of it guys and put a request for move. Hopefully we'll see this happening soon. Thanks again guys (or girls) :) --Lanternix 00:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Lanternix! (we're girls. lol. but I don't mind the "guys" comment. like yousguys :)) - Jeeny Talk 02:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
so, looks like the move is harder than I had thought. I need your help here guys/girls :) The proposal has been moved from "uncontroversial" to "incomplete and contested". I think it will go through if both of you could back me up there. I also made a similar request to move Suhaj to Sohag. Please back me up on this one as well if you garee, otherwise, we could discuss that issue further on the Suhaj talk page. Thanks enromously! --Lanternix 14:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] City vs Region

  • Hi, I have reverted your major undiscussed edit to Faiyum and Faiyum Governorate, which you made on the grounds that "Faiyum only means the town". For example, a short Google search for "Faiyum" will show many pages outside Wikipedia (e.g. http://www.grisel.net/faiyum.htm) that use the name Faiyum (or Fayyum or Fayum) to mean the whole of the Faiyum depression. Traditionally the name Faiyum (derived via Coptic from the Ancient Egyptian for "great water") meant Lake Moeris, or the depression that it lay in. Use of the name Faiyum for the town is quite recent: the town was formerly called Madīnat al Faiyūm = "the town of (= in) the Faiyum", and the town's name being shortened to only Faiyum is recent. Please discuss this. Anthony Appleyard 16:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
What do people think about this? I believe we need to keep Faiyum for the city, and Faiyum Governorate for the larger area/region. Thanks. --Lanternix 17:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree to keep them separate, or else combine them into one article. As it is, and I'm afraid, it's going to become too confusing. I'm trying to figure what's what in the article now. It repeats itself, goes off into different directions that are not clear, etc. IMO. - Jeeny Talk 17:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok Jeeny, can you please refrain from editing the article till we reach an agreement? :) Let's just decide what we will do first then start working on it together. I feel the best thing to do is to have 2 articles, one would be Faiyum about the city, and one Faiyum Governorate about the political entity (the governorate) and the region as a whole. Alternatively, we can also have a third page (something like Faiyum Oasis ?) for the region, and keep Faiyum Governorate for the governorate alone. But to have Faiyum meaning the region is misleading, I feel. When people in Egypt say Faiyum it almost always means the city. Sure enough the region was historically also called Faiyum, but it's not now. Thanks :) --Lanternix 17:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree about the city being different from the region. I was trying to make sense of the article, and having a difficult time. I will stop editing it as you asked, as I'm so confused anyway. :) - Jeeny Talk 17:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • As I found the pages Faiyum and Faiyum Governorate (or whatever they were spelled then), they were rather untidy: for example, matter about the town was duplicated in both pages; matter about the depression was partly in one page and partly in the other. I felt that I had to separate the three subjects and avoid content forking: The town. The Fayyum depression. The governorate, which includes the depression and also various dry areas outside the depression. What then do modern Egyptians call the Faiyum depression nowadays? Anthony Appleyard 18:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Modern Egyptians would call it Faiyum Oasis if they want to be very accurate, but they usually don't talk about the region. The expression Faiyum depression is virtually absent from daily Egyptian vocabulary (I personally wouldn't even know how to call that in Arabic). Some may also refer to the Region of Faiyum. But the point is that, when the Faiyum Governorate was founded, they made it to encompass the whole region of Faiyum. So now the governorate and the region are basically the same thing. That's why I feel it makes much more sense to keep Faiyum for the city, and include the rest of the information about the governorate / the Region / the depression in Faiyum Governorate. Makes sense? Thanks. --Lanternix 18:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
For the third time, Anthony Appleyard keeps editing articles while we are still discussing them. I'm reverting everything back to my version until the issue is settled. This attitude is not acceptable. --Lanternix 18:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, the discussion is about what material to keep each in this article and in the one about the Faiyum Governorate. In this case, I think we should simply stick to the standard followed on other governorates. For example, there is the town Giza and there is the larger Giza Governorate which includes the towns Giza, Atfih, Memphis and a collection of smaller villages. It makes more sense to me to follow this guideline, so keeping general information about the governorate in its own page and information about the town here. Perhaps we should create Faiyum (disambiguation) for this purpose.

On a different note, Faiyum mummy portraits is a specialized topic, more about the portraits than about the town. In my experience, "Fayum" is much more frequently used in English-language literature, and there was a separate discussion there about keeping the transliteration to 'Fayum'. I think the portraits article should stick to that convention as well, and leave a small note that there are alternative spellings. — Zerida 19:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree or re-renaming Faiyum mummy portraits to Fayum mummy portraits, since everyone on the talk page agrees on that. I would, however, stick to Faiyum as the name of the city/region within the article. Concerning the main issue here, I totally agree with you Zerida to stick to the convention of Faiyum/Giza (=city) and Faiyum Governorate/Giza Governorate (=larger region). Thanks! --Lanternix 19:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • It seems that we need pages about:-
    • The Faiyum Governorate.
    • The Faiyum Oasis, which is not the same as the governorate area.
    • Faiyum town, which should contain a note that formerly, and sometimes now, "Faiyum" meant the Faiyum oasis.

Anthony Appleyard 20:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I have created the file Faiyum Oasis, which contains matter which disappeared during Lanternix;'s edits of Faiyum and Faiyum Governorate. Anthony Appleyard 20:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Anthony, I went ahead and created a disambiguation page for Faiyum because disambiguating here makes the page look very cluttered. See the article on Egypt, for example. Thanks for creating Faiyum Oasis.
Lanternix, sorry for not being clear, I agree that 'Faiyum' should remain as the transliteration for the name of the town/governorate. However, since everyone agrees, I'm also going to move back the mummy portraits page to its previous name. — Zerida 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
No worries Zerida, I totally agree with reverting back to Fayum mummy portraits. The page about Lake Moeris should contain the history of the lake, so I brought it back. It's not convenient to put a note there saying refer to page X for the history of the Lake! I will go back and see if there are minor edits to make on the newly formed pages, Faiyum, Faiyum Oasis and Faiyum Governorate. Thanks. --Lanternix 22:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, good! I was concerned about the Fayum mummy portraits being re-named. Glad everyone agrees. You are so smart, Zerida. - Jeeny Talk 00:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 :) By the way, I restored the small mummy portraits overview that seems to have gotten lost in the moves. I hope no other previous information is missing. — Zerida 03:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
N35 N35 N35 N36
in hieroglyphs
N35
N35
N35
N36
niwt
in hieroglyphs
O49

As for "Faiyum" also meaning the oasis: I have provided references. Note also that the hieroglyphic spelling of "Faiyum" which User:Zerida provided, ends in triplicate N35 (surface of water) followed by N36 (channel with water in), which both are determinants for "river, lake, sea", and not the determinant for "inhabited place" (plan of four buildings at a crossroads, Gardiner O 49, niwt). Anthony Appleyard 04:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I clearly have no problem with the word referring the oasis as well (hence the name I initially suggested Faiyum Oasis). I have a problem, however, with claiming that the name was originally exclusive to the Oasis and not the city. If anything, the name was originally referring to the Moeris Lake, which the Egyptians called the Sea. Then the lake gave this reference to both the city and the region. I found no sources to suggest that the region was named "Efiom" first, then gave this name to the city. Thanks. --Lanternix 13:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)