Talk:Eurasian Avars

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Archive 1

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Contents 1 Neutrality 2 Ruler list 3 List of Avar Rulers 4 Another list 5 Map 6 Language of Avars

[edit] Neutrality

I was surprised to return to this page and find it so reduced. The reason is clear: a vicious series of edit wars worthy of the Avars and Byzantines themselves (and with similar results). While burning each other's academic villages, you seem to have destroyed a lot else besides. For instance, surely the king list didn't need to go?

Please remember that Wikipedia is about spreading knowledge, not furthering our own ideological struggles. Ask yourself, what will the reader in Brisbane or Buenos Aires want from this page?

So I have tried to restore everything that is non-contentious, and have indicated some of the theories that you guys have been arguing about while stressing that there are competing theories and that much of it is hotly disputed. Because of the lack of historical records, some speculation is necessary and adds interest, as long as the reader is told what is fact and what is unproven.

While I know more about the Avars than anyone I know, I don't have the same expertise the editors who have been struggling for control of this page. What I do have is an objective outlook and professional editing skills.

I have tried to improve this page based on your previous contributions. I have tried to be honest and objective, but if you think I've got anything wrong, can we discuss it in the Talk page first? The last thing this page needs is another edit war. Patrick Neylan 12:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The king list is practically a hoax. No unsourced speculation is permited by WP:ATTR, no matter how much interest it adds.--91.148.159.4 14:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ruler list

Moved the folliwng list of rulers to talk page. First, Pohl (see the link in the article), an expert on the subject, says we only know one name, Baian. Second, this amateur page says Tudun and Zodan are titles, that the names of Baian's successors are unknown, and generally shows that everything about that is very uncertain. Third, Bulgar ruler Kubrat was obviously not a ruler of the Avars at all, nor was his son Batbayan! Forth, the etymology of baltavar as "half-Avar" is ridiculous, and fifth, "baltavar" itself (or rather, something remotely similar, with only consonants and, I think, without the initial "b") is only attested in some form in Ibn Fadlan's 10th century account about Volga Bulgaria - the rest is in Djagfar tarikhy, a source that no respectable historian ever used. Sixth, the source for all that stuff are probably sites like this pan-Turkic site which also uses Djagfar tarikhy. Note, finally, that the whole list was added by an anon user who no longer edits. --91.148.159.4 14:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Avar Rulers

552-562	Kandik aka Khingila asked the Alan King Sarosios to introduce his people to Byzantium as refugees from Central Asia.
562-602	Bayan I settles Pannonia in 568 and established Avar puppet Houdbaad of Onogunduri - Kutigurs & Utigurs in 580s
602-617	Bayan II
617-630	N... (established Regent Organa 600s-635 over Onogunduri)
635-660	Kubrat first Bulgarian BaltAvar (Half Avar)(Father was an Avar)
660-?	Bayan III Eldest son of Kubrat rules from Crimea to avoid Khazar mercenaries
685-791	1st Khazar Avar alliance.
729/730	Surakat (Khazar puppet establishes Caucasian Avaristan)
791-795	Yugurus during Avar civil war
795-?	Kajd Tudun
803-?	Zodan the puppet of Krum who claimed European Eastern Avaria through relation to Kubrat's Kuber estate.
?-814	Theodorus (Carolingian Puppet) opposed by Khazar candidates.
814-?	Abraham (Khazar puppet) supported against Carolingians
?-835	Isaac Tudun (Khazar puppet)

[edit] Another list

• Surakat, at the time of Abu Muslima....................729/30
• Andunik-Nutsal, at the time of Abu Muslima
• Dugry-Nutsal
• Largely to Georgia.............................c. 1000-1050's
• To the Alans....................................1050's-1120
• To Shirvan.....................................c. 1120-1225
• To the Mongols....................................1225-1278
• Surakat (Amir Khunzkh)....................c. 1230-1256
• Bayar.....................................c. 1256-c. 1270
• Masum Beg.................................c. 1270-c. 1275
• Sultan....................................c. 1275-c. 1295
• To the Persian Ilkhanate..........................1278-1340
• Malik Sarashan....................................c. 1300
• To Jalayrid Baghdad...............................1340-1382
• To the Timurid Empire.............................1382-1405
• To the Horde of the Black Sheep...................1405-1468
• Gandunik..................................c. 1460-c. 1485
• To the Horde of the White Sheep...................1468-1502
• Bulak.....................................c. 1485-c. 1510
• To Persia.........................................1502-1516
• To the Ottoman Empire.............................1516-1620
• Nutsal-Khan I.............................c. 1540-c. 1568
• To Persia.........................................1620-late 1700's
• Umma Khan I...............................c. 1620-c. 1634
• Moldar Mirza..................................fl. 1650
• Muhammad Khan I...........................c. 1650-c. 1668
• Dugru.....................................c. 1670-c. 1699
• Muhammad Khan II..............................fl. 1713
• Umma Khan II (Bulach the Old).............c. 1720-c. 1730
• Ankalav...................................c. 1730-c. 1735
• Umma Khan II (Bulach the Old, restored)..fl. 1735-1740
• Nutsal-Khan II............................c. 1740-c. 1744
•  ?
• Muhammad-Nutsal IV........................1753 > -1765 with...
• Muhammad Mirza............................1753 > - ?
• Nutsal-Beg...................................1765-1774
• Umma Khan III.....................................1774-1801
• Gebek Janku ibn Muhammad..........................1801-1802 (succeeded by his father)
• Muhammad ibn Umma......................................1802
• To Russia indirectly..............................1802-1843
• MEHTULI dynasty
• Sultan Ahmed Khan Mehtulinski................1802-1823
• Bahu (or Huh) Bike (fem.)..................c. 1823-1834 with...
• Surhai Khan..................................1823-1827 and then...
• Aslan Khan of Ghazi-Ghumuq...................1827-1828 and then...
• Abu Sultan...................................1828-1834
• Hadji Murat..................................1834-1836 with...
• Mohammed Mirza Khan (also in Ghazi-Ghumuq)...1834-1837
• To Imamate of Shamil (Dagestan)...................1837-1859
• To Russia once again..............................1859-1864
• Ibrahim Khan.................................1859-1863

The funny thing is that it has got nothing to do with Avars as shown by the fate that extends beyond their existence. I did not delete it since it may be needed by another article. -- Zz 11:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think these are the Caucasian Avars.--91.148.159.4 11:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Fz, why you reverting incorrect map to this article? It is not correct that only Avars lived in this area and not Slavs. See for example this about Slavic archaeological findings in Vojvodina and Hungary: http://curug.rastko.net/9-vek/index_en.html Quote: "Pottery made on a slow wheel, decorated in the same manner as the pots from Čurug, was found in the vicinity of Zemun, in a settlement from the second half of the 9th century and the beginning of the 10th century, as well as in the vicinity of Vršac and in settlements and graves in Hungary, where it was dated to the 9th and 10th century. In the Bačka region similar ceramics on a slow wheel was found in Botra near Bečej, from the 8th-9th century, and in the “Veliki Put” site near Čantavir, from the 9th century, but kneaded pottery is present in a far larger percentage in these sites. Considering the said analogies, as well as the small percentage of kneaded pots, the houses from Čurug might be dated to the end of the 9th and beginning of the 10th century. The characteristics of the pottery from this structure undoubtedly point towards a Slavic population from the time of Hungarian conquests". Also see this: http://www.bac.co.yu/english/Istorija/Sadrzaj.htm Quote: "He was preaching and converting to Christianity the Slavs in Backa and Bac,a settlement that was founded in the year 873 both by the Barbarians and the Slavs.", etc, etc. Thus, it is clear that Slavs lived in these "Avar-inhabited regions" as well (not only in the areas where you placed them on this map), thus the presence of Slavs have to be reflected somehow and I think that best way to do this is to writte "Avar and Slavic population" instead just "Avar population". If you have better idea how we can reflect presence of Slavs, please say what better idea that might be. PANONIAN 16:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Look, I don't think there was no Slavic population in the region at all - those who accepted the protection of the Avars, - but the Avars were still the dominant ethnic group in the 7th century. Don't forget the maps shows the year 680 from where the Second Avar Empire is dated (when a new ethnic group settled amongst the Avars the so called 'griffin and tendril' culture). Plus the Slavs were unable to cross the Carpathians while the region was under the rule of Gepides. Gepidia was destroyed by the Avars and I don't see why and when the whole Avar Empire was invaded by Slavic peoples en masse and in several decades, they became a majority while the Avars did nothing but twirled their fingers ...--fz22 19:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It is very disputed whether Slavs or Avars were dominant group in Avar state. Some history books mention this state under name Avaro-Slavic state. The point is that you showed on your map that Slavs lived only outside of areas where Avars lived implying that there were no Slavs at all in the areas inhabited by Avars and that is simply wrong. There are two ways to make this map correct: 1. either to mention that Slavs also lived in the area inhabited by Avars, or 2. to delete any mention of Slavs from this map showing only area inhabited by Avars with no any implication whether Slavs lived inside or outside this area. You choose which of these two solutions is better. PANONIAN 21:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Slavic populations lived only near the Avar-Slavic ethnic border. They started to settle in significant numbers after the fall of the Avars. No evidence on Avar-Slav cohabitation ... See this: http://www.magtudin.org/Puspoki%202.htm (unfortunately only in Hungarian)--fz22 10:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Avars were known to re-settle captured peoples (slavs, Gepids, etc) wothin the central regions of their empire (pannonia). So Slavs could well have lived side by side with Avars —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 09:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language of Avars

Author wrote:The 6th Century historian Menander Protector noted that the language of the Avars was the same as that of the Huns, appearing as an Oghuric Turkic branch like modern Chuvash or Turkic Bulgarian and Khazar. We do not have any proofs of that language of Huns was Turkic or Chuvash. From 29 Asian-Hunnic words reached us in the Chinese transcription are not present any Turkic. All of them-Yenisseyan (Kets).On this theme is written works of Dulson.A lot of researchers also considers, that the most part of early avars made protomongols and east iranians (Hephthalites, Khionites). And you only about turkis write. Where proofs? Turkis were population only subdued by avars - the Protobulgars. Avars did not love them and concerned to them badly.You in general can result even one Hunnic or the Avarian document written on Turkic? No.--87.117.157.9 (talk) 18:51, 17 November 2007 (UTC)