Talk:Et in Arcadia ego

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how about creating a section at the bottom for referencing works, since there are 2 of them mentioned?--Andymussell 00:59, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent helpful article! But one gripe: What the sentence "Et in Arcadia Ego" seems to be missing is a verb, not a subject. Literally word for word it says "And in Arcadia I" -- "I" being a perfect and obvious subject. --Andrew K Robinson 20 Jan 2006

Latin is happy to leave words out where English would include them. "Sum" ("am", "I am") would presuambly be the best fit here; however, as it is an inscription on a tomb, the past tense would be reasonable as well. Using both the nominative pronoun and the verb (especially the verb "to be") in a Latin sentence would be overkill; so the emphasis in this phrase is on the subject, not the verb.

"Et" has meanings in Latin beyond the primary meaning of "and" in modern English usage. It can mean "even" in the sense of "Even I am in Arcadia," or "I, too, am in Arcadia". Whether the idea is to remind the people of Arcadia that even there, Death exists, or to remind visitors to the grave that the entombed was once there, too, like the visitors...well, it's reasonable to presume that it's intentionally ambiguous, to convey both meanings: Death in the present tense, the entombed in the past tense; the verb is omitted to hide the tense, allowing both meanings to exist simultaneously.

If the sentence is intentionally ambiguous, as art often is, then the verb has to be omitted. So there's nothing weird or odd about its being "missing"; it's just an interesting choice by a thoughtful artist. Silarius 18:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Silarius, your remarks would do well in the body of the article itself. --Wetman 20:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Wetman. Silarius' remarks are spot-on and quite articulate. SaulPerdomo

See "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent et al for the importance of this painting. Rearrange the letters to I Tego Arcana Dei (Begone! I conceal the secrets of God)

Sorry about my edit - at the computer I was at, I was getting an error that said the picture couldn't be found. Seems to be working now, though. Thanks for the quick fix of my mistake. MrCheshire 21:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Latin grammar doesn't like English, a verb isn't necessary. But the pronoun Ego is used instead of Sum, so the phrase is incomplete.

I wouldn't use The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail as a reference for anything factual.67.142.130.23 00:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I could hardly claim expertise in Latin, I do know enough to know that, unless used in poetry, where grammar rules go out the window, the verb almost invariably comes at the end of a sentence (i.e. I! Arcana Dei Tego, not I! Tego Arcana Dei.) The first would be bad grammar, were the anagram theory to be true. Varlet16 04:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article issues

Neutrality issues:

// Pseudohistorians unaware of that aspect of Latin grammar have concluded that the sentence is incomplete // - needs a citation in support. Also the term "pseudohistorian" presented as fact without evidence. In one sense, every historian that ever lived is a "pseudohistorian" from another historian's viewpoint.

Weasel Words:

// Conspiracy theories // // Pseudohistorians unaware // // dismissed by art historians // // Their argument assumes that // // Further conspiracy theories concerning // —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.110.198.124 (talk • contribs) 25 November 2006.

None of these are "weasel" words, since they are clear and explicit. Paul B 19:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with anonymous here. I don't know if I'd call them "weasel words" since I've never liked the term and I don't think everyone at wikipedia agrees on what it means. However, the use of the word "pseudohistorian", for example, is POV. Pseudohistory is defined by wikipedia as a pejorative term, and while I agree that only dumbasses or those with an agenda would look too much into the meaning of the phrase, going so far as to affirm there's a conspiracy in there somewhere, it still doesn't change the fact that the "Conspiracy Theories" section is not very NPOV. SaulPerdomo 00:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Real Landscape

Is it worth mentioning that the landscape in the painting is real? People thought that Poussin had invented it but it really exists in the French Pyrennes. This is one of the very few true discoveries made by the Holy Blood, Holy Grail authors. I think that there really is a tomb there too. Not sure if anyone's ever looked inside.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 17:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

It may well be real, but it's not the one at Rennes le Chateau. Read the article. Paul B 17:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)