Talk:Estuary English

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This page really needs a section discussing how Estuary English is not universally accepted among academics. Some deny it completely, whereas others think it's misrepresented. My own tutor believes acceptance of the term is much more common amongst younger lecturers/tutors than older ones. Spuderoony 11:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

And since the younger tutors are likely more in touch with the language changes occuring in our society right now, they're more likely to be right, no? It may not be a unified entity, but it certainly exists as the broad set of trends which are noted in this article. BovineBeast 00:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

"It is popular in English society because it helps to neutralize social differences."

By making everyone sound like complete morons!

yeh, bu' wha' ya gunna do abou' i'?

No, that's more like cockney, Estuary is not as harsh as cockney English. Angryafghan 16:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I think somebody needs to make it clear just how stupid people sound when they speak like this

I don't think you know what Estuary English is. Angryafghan 16:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It's Chavspeak!

There is nothing inherently wrong or inferior about Estuary English. Any such impressions are purely the result of prejudice assumptions made by the listener. --86.135.68.101 12:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Not a Uniform Dialect

I think it's important to note that "Estuary English" (pronounced Esh-choo-ree in Estuary) is not a single uniform dialect and there are different variations used by different people, depending on both geographical differences and social class, I don't know of any reliable sources to qualify anything written about Estuary English but most of the information is based on observation and based on my own observations I've found that some people "adopt" Estuary in conversations while others speak it naturally, but on different levels, some people sound more similar to Cockney when speaking it while others are closer to RP. Angryafghan 19:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

A pet hate of mine is the use of the expression "Home Counties" accent to mean something used by the middle or upper middle class and verging on RP. This is no more the "dialect" of the Home Counties than it is anywhere else...at least half (?) of those living in the Home Counties would be working or lower middle class and speak in an Estuary or similar accent...and as is often the case in Home Counties towns these are likely to be the "real" natives to the particular town where they live. As they say if you want to find the original inhabitants in a south eastern locality look on the council estates. The south-eastern working or lower middle-class... surely the most downtrodden,ignored sector of English society? (and probably at least about 10 million strong) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.73 (talk) 23:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why Parklife?

Am I missing something, or is this article totally unrelated to Parklife?

Your right.
Correction - You are (or You're) right.
What an enlightening conversation.

[edit] chavspeak?

I think it's clear that many people, especially people who don't live in areas that speak estuary have a very biased view regarding the way we speak, I'm just as much a chav-hater as the rest of polite society but I also speak in an incredibly thick estuary accent/dialect, I'm not ignorant of how to speak RP and can do so if the social circumstance require it, though I prefer not to. It also does not mean I sound like a moron, for if estuary 'sounds' low-intelligence then by that logic so does every non-standard accent or dialect of the language, but we never hear people say the welsh dialect sounds moronic, or the brummie accent sounds moronic do we? Also I must raise a question - who exactly says that estuary is 'clear as mud and flows freely'? I'd assume probably only the person who added that to the article. Seek100 02:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm in complete agreement. Frankly, the majority of people who say it sounds 'stupid' are middle-class people with some kind of superiority complex. Estuary English is my native dialect and I'd appreciate it if people didn't denigrate it as if it was some kind of inferior one. Ask any linguist and they'll tell you that no dialect is 'better' than another. Estuary English is just as fit for purpose as any other dialect. BovineBeast 00:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm in cautious agreement. My natural accent is Estuary or Cockney but as I now live in NZ I speak RP because people understand me better. When I'm back home, I go back to Estuary. Language is about communication, therefore a good accent is one that communicates clearly. Also, a lot of middle class people speak with an Estuary accent so it's not a class thing either. And was the chav hating comment really necessary? 125.239.207.41 04:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Promoting Equality?

although i do not adopt "estuary english" in any situation, i do think that those who speak it naturally are seen as more equal because it is people from a wider range of social backgrounds which use this dialect rather than the traditional received pronouciation which is now more associated with the upper classes, and also northerners cant say that all southerners talk like posh toffs anymore, if anything they have been outdone because estuary english is a much less attractive accent than some northern accents - Angryafghan 16:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that northerners are a bit muddled about this. On the one hand they talk about a "southern accent" meaning a "posh accent". On the other hand they would never claim that cockneys "spoke posh". Ask someone from the north how a Millwall supporter speaks, and he's hardly likely to reply "posh". But they would not deny that Millwall is in the south. Bill Tegner 22:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "face" as [aɪ]?

I think the diphthong in "face" is not [ʌɪ] but [aɪ]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.161.26.139 (talk • contribs) .

You'll need some evidence to back that up. Wells says that the "face" diphthong can be [ɛɪ], [ɐɪ], [ʌɪ], or [æɪ], but I've never seen any source that's said it's [aɪ]. --Lazar Taxon 23:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Social Implications of Estuary English

I believe this article may benefit a little from the social class aspects of estuary english? If there is any agreement here on the matter I shall go ahead and write up a section? But I thought I'd double check first as it may not nessessarily be to everyones taste? --WikipedianProlific(Talk) 22:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of The Glottal Stop

This article states: (but never as a glottal stop between vowels, as in Cockney or in southern dialects, e.g. "water"). First I should point out that the main article on the "Glottal Stop" contradicts the last part of the sentence, I would also like to point out that I live in Essex and am surrounded by people who pronounce "water" /wɔːʔə/ with a glottal stop and unpronounced "r". Angryafghan 16:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] spread to North Britain (removed)

Removed following:

Estuary English definitely is on the rise, arguably replacing old standard dialects such as Scouse even in the North of Great Britain.[1] This is contradicted by [2] and [3] which see it as a Southern phenomenon.

It is not clear that this is the case, and the inclusion of contradictory media links seems to be original research. -- Chris Q 08:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say as a matter of opinion (due to lack of research into the accent) that EE is restricted to the south east, particularly in Essex, which could be the centre of the accent, in counties further out such as Norfolk and Kent only certain aspects can be heard. Nevertheless it is without a doubt a real accent and rapidly replacing the traditional old essex accent, which sounds slightly like an East Anglian accent though not as pronounced and of course the dialect is absent. Angryafghan 16:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

since when is norfolk in the south east...its as much part of the north as the south east! ie not in either —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.173.35 (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from article

(Estuary English) "uses words from American English and Australian English[citation needed]."

The citation was requested almost three months ago([4]). --194.145.161.227 00:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australian Interrogative

I'm no linguistic expert, but I think there's an aspect of Estuary called "the Australian interrogative", which involves stressing the final words of a statement and seeming to phrase it like a question. Any comment? Bill Tegner 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The Australian speech 'pattern' you refer to, the raising of the voice at the end of a sentence has long been a characteristic of many teenage Australians and related more to shyness or hesitancy. Some adult Australians slip into this pattern when stressed, for example when suddenly interviewed by a film crew, or when talking on the phone in a stressful situation. It may sound like an interrogative but is more of a 'developmental' phase that many, but not all young Australians go through, like acne!! --MichaelGG 05:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC) Brisbane.

[edit] Timescale

Has anyone an idea when the phrase "Estuary Accent" was first used? Bill Tegner 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] broad A

"A broad A in words such as bath, grass, laugh, etc". Is it supposed to mean ash? agnus 18:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's the open back unrounded vowel IPA: ɑː LDHan 19:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

How could this be cited as one of the features of Estuary English and its features distinct from IPA? The broad A has always been standard for such words in IPA.

I don't think it says that it's distinct from RP (I think you mean Received Pronunciation not International Phonetic Alphabet), but rather that rural working class accents in the south east did not have the "broad A" until relatively recently. LDHan 00:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I grew up in Newcastle on Tyne, and of course we pronounced 'grass' and 'path' with the short unrounded a. To us, Southerners were saying "Graahrs" and "Paahrth". To elaborate on this: to a Geordie grass rhymes with hat rhymes with path rhymes with flat. However listening to Prince Harry on TV recently, his a's would have done any young man in Sunderland or Gateshead proud!--MichaelGG 05:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC) I've lived in the north (Yorks and Lancs) for many years now but still speak with a broad estuary accent and have noticed that Northerners tend not to be able to do the long "a" like a working class south easterner. Two Northern girlfriends of mine adnmitted this...if they tried they ended up speaking the "a" (in grass etc)in the over enunciated way of the south-eastern upper middle class...a sound completely different than the long "a" of the estuary speaker or Cockney.It's very difficult to describe the difference in the written word but very obvious if you hear it.

The use of the word "southerners"by Michael G above is a bit misleading...I presume he means the long "a" as spoken by people from the south east as people from the south west who retain the true West Country accent dont say words like grass, castle or bath with a long "a" but with an "a" sound different from both the south east or north but nearer to the short "a" of the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.73 (talk) 23:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Diphthong in "Coat"

Can the diphthong in the word "coat" be realized as [ʌʊ] in Estuary English? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 06:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bad-lad Split

Is there a bad-lad split in Estuary English? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] England

I've noticed that the way English people pronounce, well, England, is different from the way Americans pronounce it. How would the English pronunciation be written phonetically? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)