Category talk:Esterházy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Request for Comment

Few of them were forced into Czechoslovak citizenship after the Treaty of Trianon, but that will never make them a "Slovak noble house". Please bring a credible source for that, like I cited three credible sources in the lead of the House of Esterházy. Squash Racket 15:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Members of the House of Esterházy have lived in the territory of Slovakia for centuries and some of them have been citizens of Slovakia (or/and Czechoslovakia). The word "Slovak" in the category "Slovak nobility" is usually not interpreted as "of Slovak ethnicity". "Slovak" is an adjective related to "Slovakia". Squash Racket knows it very well as he has never removed the category "Austrian nobility" on ethnocentric grounds. I would like also to note that the Kingdom of Hungary and the Austrian Empire were essentially multiethnic and Latin (not Hungarian) was the official language for most of their existence. Noble families had predominantly the class or confessional consciousness, not the ethnic one. They were generally of mixed descent and multilingual. A strict application of modern exclusive ethnic categories does not usually make much sense. The House of Esterházy is part of the history of Slovakia in the same way as it is part of the history of Hungary and Austria. Tankred 15:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Members of the family lived in the Kingdom of Hungary for centuries. The word "Slovak noble house" means one thing, just like "Hungarian noble house". I don't know if Austrian noble houses should be removed, because some members of the family had German names, I will look into that also.

Not everyone in the Kingdom of Hungary was Magyar and I never said that (misleading messages?). Why does Britannica talk about them clearly as Hungarians if everything was so multiethnic then? Because Tankred is a better source than them? Before I forget it: noname The New York Times also talks about an ancient Hungarian family Esterházy. If you can pull up a source as credible as Britannica stating the House of Esterházy was a "Slovak noble house", category may remain. Squash Racket 16:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure even if you have read what I wrote on this page. So, again: The word "Slovak" in the category "Slovak nobility" is usually not interpreted as "of Slovak ethnicity". "Slovak" is an adjective related to "Slovakia". They did not live in the territory of Slovakia? None of them had a Slovak (or Czechoslovak) citizenship? If you claim that, you would contradict the very articles in this category. Tankred 01:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Then how would you refer to 'Slovak noble houses' if it was about ethnicity? The category "Nobles with Czechoslovak citizenship", or "Nobles who lived in the territory of today's Slovakia" could be added to the individual's article (NOT the whole family). The present category is clearly misleading for an English reader who knows nothing about János Esterházy, the Treaty of Trianon, Kingdom of Hungary, Hungarian nobility etc. Squash Racket 05:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Every single time you refer to ethnicity on Wikipedia with the term "Slovak", don't you think it is misleading in this case? Squash Racket 08:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The categories of this type are by convention named "X noble houses", X being an adjective related to a country. These categories are not exclusive (meaning one category per one noble house) and they are not defined only by ethnicity. The House of Croÿ belongs to French noble houses, Belgian noble houses, and Austrian noble houses. The House of Lorraine belongs to French, Austrian, and German noble houses simultaneously. The House of Bernadotte is listed as both a French (by descent) and Swedish (by choice) family. The 16th-century House of Blois is listed as a Belgian noble house (by location) although Belgium was founded in the 19th century. Do you want more examples? Your idea to apply exclusive ethnic identities on European noble houses goes against the consensus prevailing in this type of categories. You should either propose it on the European level (changing all the "noble house" categories) or you should accept the consensus. I do not see any point in having a separate discussion on this page while the issue is more general. Tankred 18:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Please stop spamming. We are not talking about European noble houses in general, only about the Eszterházy family. Are they a Slovak noble house? No. They had very strong ties with Austria, but can we say they are an Austrian noble house? I don't think so.

I looked up for example the lead of House of Croÿ. They are an international noble family (they even have Hungarian ancestry!), the Eszterházy family is simply referred to as Hungarian. After reading about the House of Bernadotte I see no problem with the categorization over there. And also you can compare their story to that of the Eszterházys. Sorry, I couldn't find the House of Blois. Squash Racket 18:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Because of Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy, the Eszterházy family could also be listed as a French noble house. Would that help American and English users use that encyclopedia? Squash Racket 18:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

If you want to have a civil discussion, do not accuse me of spamming. My comparison shows that this type of categories is not based only on ethnicity, but also on location. Moreover, it follows both the ancient and modern boundaries of European states. So, multiple categories for the same article are no exception. I do not see why it should be a problem here, when it is not a problem elsewhere in WP. Tankred 18:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've just shown that your comparison does not apply here. Squash Racket 18:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Since Esterházy family hold Hungarian noble titles (and also Austrian, and German Imperial ones) they were Hungarian nobles whatever their nationality was. For example the late Baron Hans Heinrich Thyssen-Bornemisza de Kászon was born in the Netherlands, hold Swiss citizenship and mostly lived in Spain, but he was a Hungarian baron. If you can not accept Hungarian, I have nothing against Nobility of the Kindom of Hungary. --Koppany 19:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly my point. The same person (and this is even more true for old families) can be part of the history of several countries. The House of Esterházy clearly should be part of the category Hungarian noble houses and I have never argued the opposite. But Squash Racket has proposed deletion of all other categories. As to the neologisms proposed by Squash Racket, categories are by convention named "X noble houses", X being an adjective related to a country. I do not see any reason why we need to introduce more chaos into it. Tankred 23:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point. All noble titles (with rare exceptions) were donated in the Kingdom of Hungary and by the King of Hungary, and those ennobled were part of the Hungarian nobility (unum eademque nobilitas" regardeless their ethnic background. Thus there is not such thing as Slovak nobility. We can speak about noble houses in the present-day Slovakia or Noble families in the Kingdom of Hungary of Slovak ethnicity. I dont want to delete the category at any rate, but in the description of the category all this information should be explained. --Koppany 14:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to suggest such an explanation on the talk page of that category. It is a good idea. I would also suggest we add a similar explanation to the category Hungarian noble houses, so it is clear the category includes all the nobility of the Kingdom of Hungary regardless of the then unimportant ethnicity. But the discussion on this talk page is about inclusion of the House of Esterházy in various categories. Tankred 14:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. --Koppany 10:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

According to your reasoning they should be rather called Czechoslovakian nobility... Zello 23:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The last important member of the family who lived in Slovak territory, Count János Esterházy, was the political leader of the Hungarian minority in Czechoslovakia and was sentenced to death after the war and imprisoned until his death. I would ask him whether he defined himself as a member of the "Slovak nobility". Zello 22:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Since a bot removed the RFC, what should be considered a result here? Seems to me that the opinions of the commenting users were clear about removing the categories, but turns out others may object if there is no clear formalized and closed RFC. Anyone still intrested in this topic or just let the RFC join those others that wasted a bit of time and solved nothing (since this is a very very small issue here whether to remove these cats. ...). Hobartimus (talk) 11:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

No third party has commented on this issue and this discussion has just reaffirmed our previous positions. Quite a useless exercise that did not lead to any consensus or compromise. Tankred (talk) 15:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Sl*vak no*ble houses" invented right here on WIkipedia

What should be done in the cases where some fringe theory (like "flat earth") is pushed heavyily or even invented wight here on wikipedia? Is there some process where after proof is provided the whole thing could be cleansed in one porcess in one go? Hobartimus (talk) 15:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)